Sign mistake when computing integral with differential forms

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the application of Stokes' theorem using differential forms, specifically focusing on the integration of a given vector field over a triangular boundary. Participants explore the computation of the exterior derivative and the implications of differential form conventions on the sign of the integral result.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant computes the exterior derivative dω and expresses confusion over the sign of the integral result, suspecting an error related to the ordering of differentials.
  • Another participant suggests that the discrepancy may stem from conventions in differential forms regarding the orientation of differentials, noting that certain combinations are considered positive while others are negative.
  • A similar point is reiterated by another participant, who references a text on differential forms and questions the intuitive understanding of these conventions.
  • A further contribution discusses the vector convention for surfaces and the right-hand rule, linking it to the anticommutative nature of the wedge product in differential forms.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express uncertainty about the correct application of differential form conventions and their impact on the integral's sign. Multiple viewpoints on the conventions and their intuitive understanding remain without consensus.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the need for clarity on the ordering of differentials and the implications of convention on the computation of integrals. There is an acknowledgment of the potential for confusion in applying these conventions correctly.

beefbrisket
Messages
6
Reaction score
0
The question provides the vector field (xy, 2yz, 3zx) and asks me to confirm Stokes' theorem (the vector calc version) but I am trying to use the generalized differential forms version. So, I am trying to integrate \omega = xy\,dx + 2yz\,dy + 3zx\,dz along the following triangular boundary \partial \Sigma:

KNFOdZ9.png


First, I try to find \int_\Sigma d\omega. I computed d\omega = x\,dy\,dx + 2y\,dz\,dy + 3z\,dx\,dz which simplifies to 2y\,dz\,dy on \Sigma. However, integrating over the appropriate domain of y,z with that differential gives 8/3 when the answer should be -8/3. I suspect my mistake is in not first reordering 2y\,dz\,dy to -2y\,dy\,dz before integrating, but I'm not clear on the rational behind doing so. I am missing some intuition on what 2y\,dz\,dy and -2y\,dy\,dz "are." In any case, where have I gone wrong?
 

Attachments

  • KNFOdZ9.png
    KNFOdZ9.png
    2.8 KB · Views: 665
Physics news on Phys.org
Could be from differential forms convention ie ##dxdy## , ##dydz## , and ##dzdx## are in the positive direction but ##dydx## , ##dzdy## , and ##dxdz## are in the negative direction.

##dxdy = -dydx## , ##dydz = -dzdy## and ##dzdx = -dxdz##
 
jedishrfu said:
Could be from differential forms convention ie ##dxdy## , ##dydz## , and ##dzdx## are in the positive direction but ##dydx## , ##dzdy## , and ##dxdz## are in the negative direction.

##dxdy = -dydx## , ##dydz = -dzdy## and ##dzdx = -dxdz##

In one of Weintraub's intro texts on differential forms he introduces the "fundamental correspondence" between vectors and differential forms in R^3 (haven't been able to find any other sources using this name) and for the correspondence between vectors and 2-forms he indeed uses that ordering. Is there some intuitive explanation for why it is so? I imagine sometimes we would need to use the negative directions too, any idea how I would know which is the form I am after?
 
There's a vector convention for surfaces as shown in this wikipedia article:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curl_(mathematics)

Counterclockwise ie righthand rule where fingers curl and point in the direction of integration and the thumb points in the direction of the normal to the surface considered the positive direction.

You can see it more clearly in the wedge product ie ##dx \wedge dy## which is anticommutative by definition.

Differential forms was a cleaner way of handling vector analysis. (my guess)
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: beefbrisket

Similar threads

  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 19 ·
Replies
19
Views
5K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
4K
  • · Replies 24 ·
Replies
24
Views
4K
Replies
6
Views
3K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
2K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
3K