Solve Electromagnetic Field Acting on Charged Particle

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the expansion of the equation governing the electromagnetic field acting on a charged particle, specifically focusing on the momentum 4-vector and its relationship with the electromagnetic tensor. Participants explore the correctness of mathematical expressions and the application of proper time in the context of relativistic physics.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents an expansion of the momentum 4-vector equation, questioning the validity of their steps and seeking feedback on potential mistakes.
  • Another participant points out that the initial formula presented is incorrect, suggesting the correct form involves the derivative with respect to proper time, not coordinate time.
  • Concerns are raised about the notation used for the momentum and velocity 4-vectors, specifically regarding the placement of indices and the implications of the metric signature.
  • Issues are identified with the differentiation process, including the need to evaluate derivatives with respect to proper time and the correct application of the chain rule.
  • A later reply acknowledges mistakes in transcription and notation, clarifying the intended expressions and seeking validation of the revised approach.
  • Participants discuss the appropriateness of approximating differentials versus evaluating derivatives directly, with differing opinions on the necessity of such approximations.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach consensus on the correctness of the initial expansion or the subsequent corrections. Multiple competing views on the proper application of derivatives and notation remain evident throughout the discussion.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include potential misunderstandings of notation, the treatment of proper time versus coordinate time, and unresolved mathematical steps in the differentiation process.

Mihai_B
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Can anyone help me find any mistake in this expansion ? (I've asked it also in other places but I got no answer))

Pα= e Fαβ Uβ

c = speed of light
m = "rest" mass
e = charge
a = sqr(1 - v2/c2)
v2 = vx2 + vy2 + vz2
dτ = dt a (proper time)
momentum 4 vector : Pα = [mc/a , mvx/a , mvy/a , mvz/a ]

velocity 4 vector : Uβ = [c/a , vx/a , vy/a , vx/a ]

electromagnetic tensor matrix Fαβ =
| 0 -Ex/c -Ey/c -Ez/c |
| Ex/c 0 -Bz By |
| Ey/c Bz 0 -Bx |
| Ez/c -By Bx 0 |

Expending Pα= e Fαβ Uβ we get

- for P0 :
d (m c/a) / dt = - e/(c a) (Ex vx+ Ey vy + Ez vz)
m c / a' = - e/(c a) (Ex vx+ Ey vy + Ez vz) + m c / a

- for P1 :
d (m vx)/(a dt) = e/a (Ex- Bz vy + By vz)
m v'x/a' = (e/a) (Ex- Bz vy + By vz) dt + m vx/a

- for P2 :
d (m vy)/(a dt) = (e/a) (Ey+ Bz vx - Bx vz)
m v'y/a' = (e/a) (Ey + Bz vx - Bx vz) dt + m vy/a

- for P3 :
d (m vz)/(a dt) = (e/a) (Ez- By vx + Bx vy)
m v'z/a' = (e/a) (Ez - By vx + Bx vy) dt + m vz/aAll up:
(0) m c/a' = - e/(c a) (Ex vx+ Ey vy + Ez vz) + m c / a = D
(1) m v'x/a' = (e/a) (Ex- Bz vy + By vz) dt + m vx/a = A
(2) m v'y/a' = (e/a) (Ey + Bz vx - Bx vz) dt + m vy/a = B
(3) m v'z/a' = (e/a) (Ez - By vx + Bx vy) dt + m vz/a = C

So:
A/v'x = B/v'y = C/v'z = D/c = m/a'

Are there any mistakes here ?
v'x = A c / D
v'y = B c / D
v'z = C c / D
a' = m c / D

where the new U'β = [c/a' , v'x/a' , v'y/a' , v'z/a'] and a' = sqr(1 - v'2/c2)

Thanks.
 
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Mihai_B said:
Can anyone help me find any mistake in this expansion ?

The formula you are starting with is not correct as you write it there (although you appear to be including a derivative on the LHS later in your post--but that's also not quite right as you do it, see below). The correct formula is

$$
\frac{dP_{\alpha}}{d\tau} = e F_{\alpha \beta} U^{\beta}
$$

where ##\tau## is the particle's proper time. Note that ##\tau## is not the same as ##t##, the coordinate time. See below.

Mihai_B said:
momentum 4 vector : Pα = [mc/a , mvx/a , mvy/a , mvz/a ]

velocity 4 vector : Uβ = [c/a , vx/a , vy/a , vx/a ]

This isn't quite right because you have written ##P_\alpha## with a lower index and ##U^\beta## with an upper index, and that makes a difference. The components you give for ##U^\beta## are correct; but the "0" or "t" component of ##P_\alpha## should have a minus sign because of the lower index. (This is assuming we are using the ##-+++## sign convention for the metric signature.)

Mihai_B said:
Expending Pα= e Fαβ Uβ we get

- for P0 :
d (m c/a) / dt = - e/(c a) (Ex vx+ Ey vy + Ez vz)
m c / a' = - e/(c a) (Ex vx+ Ey vy + Ez vz) + m c / a

I see three issues here. First, you should be evaluating ##d(mc/a) / d\tau##, not ##d(mc/a) / dt##. Second, you don't appear to be taking the derivative on the LHS correctly: ##d(1/a) / d\tau## should evaluate to ##-1/a^2 \left( da / d\tau \right)## (and even then you probably want to use the chain rule treating ##a## as a function of ##v## in order to get an expression in terms of ##dv / d\tau##). Third, I don't understand where the ##mc/a## term on the RHS in the second line comes from.

I haven't looked at the rest of your derivation because it looks to me like you need to start again from scratch in the light of the issues above.

One other suggestion: use standard notation. What you are calling ##1/a## is usually called ##\gamma##. It is also easier to use units where ##c = 1##.
 
Hi and thanks for the reply!

- I wrote Pα but i really actually used Pα = " Pα/dτ " . Sorry.

- You are correct - I got the sign wrong for P0. It's -mc/a

- d(mc/a)/dτ, d(mvx/a)/dτ, etc, which is what I ment to write (my original notes are correct), sorry my transcription got a little wrong.

- regarding differentials :
d(mc/a) = mc/a' - mc/a = new - old

So
(new - old)/dτ = - e/(c a) (Ex vx+ Ey vy + Ez vz)

new - old = - e/(c a) (Ex vx+ Ey vy + Ez vz) dτ

new = - e/(c a) (Ex vx+ Ey vy + Ez vz) dτ + old

(-mc/a') = - e/(c a) (Ex vx+ Ey vy + Ez vz) dτ + (-mc/a)

-mc γ' = - (e/c) γ (Ex vx+ Ey vy + Ez vz) dτ - mcγ

mc γ' = (e/c) γ (Ex vx+ Ey vy + Ez vz) dτ + mcγ

Correct ?
So i don't need to use derivative since I'm dismanteling the differential and putting in RHS what is related to old and on LHS what is related to new. Right ?

Thanks anyway !
 
Mihai_B said:
I wrote Pα but i really actually used Pα = " Pα/dτ " .

I assume you mean ##dP_\alpha / d\tau##.

Mihai_B said:
regarding differentials :
d(mc/a) = mc/a' - mc/a = new - old

They aren't differentials, they're derivatives.

Mihai_B said:
i don't need to use derivative since I'm dismanteling the differential

I don't see the point of approximating this way since you can easily evaluate the derivative of ##mc / a## (or ##m \gamma## if you use my suggested notation and units) with respect to ##\tau## exactly, without having to approximate.
 
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