News Someone show me the really vile prisoner abuse photos

[member 5645]

Someone show me the really vile prisoner abuse photos...

I mean, a dead guy beat with a rock and rape. That's vile, that's torture.That is what I'm assuming all the fuss is being made about.


However, I haven't seen any of those pictures, and I don't think they have even been shown to the public. Have they?
If not, that means all this talk of how HORRIBLE these photos are, is based on some naked guys piled on each other? some guys handcuffed in crappy positions?


Show me just what picture it is that is so shocking

 

[member 5645]

All the talk about how bad the pictures are,and no one will show me what they are talking about?

 

[aeroegnr]

All I know is that the ones that were really bad were fake.

 

[GRQC]

All the talk about how bad the pictures are,and no one will show me what they are talking about?

You will not see a rape picture, not because they don't exist but because they won't let it out. There are photos of dead detainees, though -- including soldiers giving the death a thumbs up in the same frame. ABC news has a slide show. I'm sure you can find them if you go to google, as well.

There is also a video available showing a detainee being repeatedly slammed into a steel door until he loses consciousness.

 

[GRQC]

All I know is that the ones that were really bad were fake.

The British photos were faked. The American ones are quite authentic.

 

[kat]

The British photos were faked. The American ones are quite authentic.

No, not all of them. Those in the Boston Globe (or herald, or?) were fake, and were taken from a porn site.

 

[megashawn]

Why do you need to see them? Its sick, sad and pathetic that the people who are supposed to be over there freeing the iraqi population from this exact twisted behavior, are inflicting it.

And it happened, the guilty soldiers will be in trouble for this, what are you looking for? Proof?

 

[member 5645]

Why do you need to see them? Its sick, sad and pathetic that the people who are supposed to be over there freeing the iraqi population from this exact twisted behavior, are inflicting it.

And it happened, the guilty soldiers will be in trouble for this, what are you looking for? Proof?

Because, thus far a bunch of prisoners getting beat up or having to get naked in odd positions doesn't strike me as be worth all of this hubbub- unless the hubbub is done for a different reason.

What exact twisted behavior?! That's what I'm getting at! All this talk about how these are the worst pictures people have ever seen, and I have yet to see anything that could be described as the EXACT twisted behavior outside of the rape and rock bashing (both of which no one has seen). So where are the pics that are so bad?

Not proof at all. I'm aware of what I have read and am sure it all happened.
The soldiers were idiots,and even bigger idiots for recording the actions. The thumbs up, while disrespectful, is HARDLY one of the worst pictures one could see, nor worth the awful emotional upset that is being made.

 

[member 5645]

You will not see a rape picture, not because they don't exist but because they won't let it out. There are photos of dead detainees, though -- including soldiers giving the death a thumbs up in the same frame. ABC news has a slide show. I'm sure you can find them if you go to google, as well.

There is also a video available showing a detainee being repeatedly slammed into a steel door until he loses consciousness.

I don't expect to find one. No one else has seen that either, but by reactions I would think some have seen them.

Dead detainees. While the death may be a point of invesitgation, is a dead body what is causing the hubbub??
A thumbs up? That can't be what is causing allof this.


Did the detainee slam himself? Or was he slammed? I'll search I guess.
I read a report that some detainee did such a thing to knock himself unconscious as to not witness the sexual humiliation endured by other naked prisoners. I hardly find that to be anything more than a sign that nakedness in the Arab world is a highly vulgar thing. I can't say I'd be against having any of the known al queada captives forced to stand naked and be laughed at as interrogation procedures. I wonder if that is against geneva conventions. Either way, it doesn't seem as if this would really upset the western world that is acting so dismayed.

 

[Tsu]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A5623-2004May5_2.html

Halfway down the page on the right hand side are links to photos. I don't know if these are the photos that were released by the WP earlier today or not. I don't care to see them. The descriptions are bad enough. The ones I've accidentally seen on the news are burned into my memory and will never leave. They certainly make ME sick. Are they vile enough for you?

edit: here's Adam's link from another thread. Since these are from Aljazeera, they are probably worse than what the WP is showing, so they might be more to your liking.

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/A1A5B043-D8D1-4EA4-A49C-074592F70E54.html

 

[Adam]

Okay, for those incapable of understanding: The Pentagon is releasing the pictures. They have not released all of them. To say they are fake is to call the US government liars. Deal with it.

 

[BoulderHead]

Okay, for those incapable of understanding: The Pentagon is releasing the pictures. They have not released all of them. To say they are fake is to call the US government liars. Deal with it.

That tears it then, they must be fake !

 

[studentx]

I agree with phatmonkey. Where are the really bad photos? I am sure they exist but i think your imaginations are filling in the gaps with horror right now.
Bergs beheading was called mild on these boards compared to what happened on these photos. It was said that an Iraqi killed by CIA interrogators, unlike Berg, was not killed in 15 seconds but beaten to death over several hours or days. How do we know that? How do we know Berg wasnt tortured for over 2 weeks from the moment he was captured to his beheading?

Why do you think the abuse photos are released one by one by one? Your being played and you like it.

 

[Adam]

studentx

Where are the really bad photos? I am sure they exist but i think your imaginations are filling in the gaps with horror right now.

What is your definition of "really bad"? Don't the beatings and deaths count?

Bergs beheading was called mild on these boards compared to what happened on these photos.

It was? I must have missed that.

It was said that an Iraqi killed by CIA interrogators, unlike Berg, was not killed in 15 seconds but beaten to death over several hours or days. How do we know that?

From the confessions of the soldiers who did it.

How do we know Berg wasnt tortured for over 2 weeks from the moment he was captured to his beheading?

In his nice clean orange jumpsuit? Well, maybe he was. Does that make it okay for the US military to torture and kill prisoners?

Why do you think the abuse photos are released one by one by one?

They aren't.

Your being played and you like it.

The word you're looking for is "you're". It is a contraction of "you are".

 

[studentx]

What is your definition of "really bad"? Don't the beatings and deaths count?

As far as beatings go, I've seen videos of a prisoner being slapped. As far as deaths, I've seen corpses, but not killing.
Im going to put this in bold so you don't miss it again: Im sure they happened, but where are the photos and videos

Can you link me to the confession of a soldier saying an Iraqi was beaten to death over several hours/days?

 

[Adam]

1) The Pentagon is releasing them a few at a time.

2) Please read:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_pictures/3737863.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3685669.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3701941.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3737837.stm
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/wnt/Investigation/abu_ghraib_photos_040519.html
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnew...w-beaten-to-death-by-us-troops-name_page.html

 

[olde drunk]

hey guys, talk to anyone that has ever been exposed to combat. whaever is or isn't in the photos is nothing compared to what really happens in a combat situation.

THERE ARE NO GOOD GUYS!

you can't fight a war, overtake a country and keep prisoners without being brutal. This is not M*A*S*H the tv series. idealism goes out the window with the first bullet.

so we are no different than the rest of humanity. is that so bad? it is about time we stopped being so full of ourselves as to believe we are/were better than the rest of the world. let's admit what we did and move on.

OR, "you can't handle the truth" !

love and peace,
olde drunk

 

[Adam]

hey guys, talk to anyone that has ever been exposed to combat. whaever is or isn't in the photos is nothing compared to what really happens in a combat situation.

THERE ARE NO GOOD GUYS!

A cop out, a justification for atrocities, and wrong. The "good guys" are the innocent civilians.

you can't fight a war, overtake a country and keep prisoners without being brutal.

Thus the response most of the world said BEFORE the USA invaded Iraq: DON'T GO TO WAR!

so we are no different than the rest of humanity. is that so bad?

It is if you think that excuses or justifies murder.

 

[member 5645]

Still nothing! Maybe I'm missing it. But I see no picture in there that justifies the shock and dismay being had.

Instead of all the general links, why doesn't somone actually link me to a PICTURE itself?

 

[Adam]

Obviously you did not actually check the links I provided. Please scroll up and do so.

 

[pelastration]

An interesting NewCon newssite.
I am sure it will appeal to some newcon posters here.
I think the guy is sick. Mentally.
This shows how a one-dimensional thinker is trying to project or export his decadent mentally and habits on other cultures.

http://www.chronwatch.com/content/contentDisplay.asp?aid=7554 : Even the Pope Tells Me I Should Be Shocked and Outraged by Gordon*Bloyer

Why not hold an international contest in other US-controlled Iraq, Afghanistan, Diego Garcia, Guantanamo prisons to make an higher naked pyramid? Photo's and videos are appreciated.

 

[Manadel al-Jamadi]

I mean, a dead guy beat with a rock and rape. That's vile, that's torture.That is what I'm assuming all the fuss is being made about.

However, I haven't seen any of those pictures, and I don't think they have even been shown to the public. Have they?
If not, that means all this talk of how HORRIBLE these photos are, is based on some naked guys piled on each other? some guys handcuffed in crappy positions?

Show me just what picture it is that is so shocking

I will watch you. Tonight. From the other side.

 

[olde drunk]

Adam: I am saying the same thing! we go over there with this silly idea that we will fight according to our movie hero images. war don't work that-a-way.

i will not justify war under any circumstances. there is always a better solution. But i am dissapointed at the outrage over the 'abuse'. what do people expect from combat soldiers? a tea party for all prisoners?? it is war, see it for what it is and just maybe, we can avoid the next urge to use war as a solution.


loveNpeace,
olde drunk

 

[member 5645]

I will watch you. Tonight. From the other side.

welcome to my ignore list.

 

[member 5645]

Obviously you did not actually check the links I provided. Please scroll up and do so.

Same cop out over and over - LINK ME to the pic! Show me what you think is so amazingly shocking

 

[Adam]

Are you blind? The very FIRST link has the pictures. Here it is AGAIN: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_pictures/3737863.stm

If you look around there, you can find more: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_pictures/3689167.stm

 

[kat]

Umm...that's not exactly torture...(handcuffed to a railing on the walkway)

 

[pelastration]

1. It's easy to rationalize for yourself that it is not hard what these guys experience. Morality is flexible. It's a question of your proper ideas about human dignity and ethics. It seems to me that you passed the red line of common sense and are back on the animal path. You think this is a Nintendo Game? This is about human beings.

2. These photo's are one-second frame. Before and after ... a number of things happened? This is about human beings. Remember?

3. If you judge all of this normal or acceptable done to people who are just suspects ... like a simple taxi-driver - or it could be your daughter kat - ... then I must say I have not much respect left for you, and I doubt seriously about your sincerity in looking for objectivity. This is about human beings. Remember?

This is about human beings. It happens that human have some rights. They are called Human Rights: And that's - for most of us - not a Nintendo Game. For some it is. Morality is flexible.

 

[pelastration]

I mean, a dead guy beat with a rock and rape. That's vile, that's torture.

In fact this shows how you interpret reality.
In fact it is:
.

.

.

.

.

..

..

...

...

MURDER.

 

[pelastration]

Show me just what picture it is that is so shocking

Finally phatmonky you should ask that to your buddy Rumsfeld. He has the full set of the real unsencored/unthreated photos. He spent three days in his office to examine them, although he said: 3 days to open the CD!.

 

[member 5645]

Finally phatmonky you should ask that to your buddy Rumsfeld. He has the full set of the real unsencored/unthreated photos. He spent three days in his office to examine them, although he said: 3 days to open the CD!.

But the people on this site, and the general populous across the internet are the ones freaking out. I don't need to see the ones that have not been released, for you have not seen them either - they are not the topic of conversation here.

 

[member 5645]

In fact this shows how you interpret reality.
In fact it is:
.

.

.

.

.

..

..

...

...

MURDER.

rape isn't murder. Stop trying to change this thread.

 

[member 5645]

1. It's easy to rationalize for yourself that it is not hard what these guys experience. Morality is flexible. It's a question of your proper ideas about human dignity and ethics. It seems to me that you passed the red line of common sense and are back on the animal path. You think this is a Nintendo Game? This is about human beings.

2. These photo's are one-second frame. Before and after ... a number of things happened? This is about human beings. Remember?

3. If you judge all of this normal or acceptable done to people who are just suspects ... like a simple taxi-driver - or it could be your daughter kat - ... then I must say I have not much respect left for you, and I doubt seriously about your sincerity in looking for objectivity. This is about human beings. Remember?

This is about human beings. It happens that human have some rights. They are called Human Rights: And that's - for most of us - not a Nintendo Game. For some it is. Morality is flexible.

c

Who said I rationalized it? Once again, you try to make this thread and my words into something they haven't been and still aren't.
I don't understand the overexaggerated response.

You are showing yourself unable to make a reply without some inane statement putting words in my mouth. Get off my balls.

 

[member 5645]

Are you blind? The very FIRST link has the pictures. Here it is AGAIN: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_pictures/3737863.stm

If you look around there, you can find more: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_pictures/3689167.stm

So that picture right there honestly shocked you? Honestly you think that is enough to make people go "Nick Berg deserved what he got", and say things like this is the "EXACT same acts"(quote from THIS board) that were happening before.
This picture is what people equate with Saddam's torture?

 

[kat]

1. It's easy to rationalize for yourself that it is not hard what these guys experience. Morality is flexible. It's a question of your proper ideas about human dignity and ethics. It seems to me that you passed the red line of common sense and are back on the animal path. You think this is a Nintendo Game? This is about human beings.

I don't remember anyone saying it was not hard. It's not a question of ethics or dignity, the questions was..."is it torture". And for the rest, as adam says "strawman" or is it "red herring"?

2. These photo's are one-second frame. Before and after ... a number of things happened? This is about human beings. Remember?

which makes any assumptions of before and after..exactly that supposition/assumption, innuendo...not proven fact.

3. If you judge all of this normal or acceptable done to people who are just suspects ...

show me the quote where someone said normal? or acceptable? the question again... "was it torture?"

like a simple taxi-driver - or it could be your daughter kat - ... then I must say I have not much respect left for you, and I doubt seriously about your sincerity in looking for objectivity. This is about human beings. Remember?

Strawman, and I think people are confusing different areas of the prison in which these people where held and those who they later released as innocent. Not sure about that, and no time to look it up but..really nothing you've said applies to the question. Abuse is not torture, nor is it the equivlent of Saddam's torture but apparently it is comparable to what's happening in French prisons..where's the outrage there? Of course, again, none of this is relevant to the question.

This is about human beings. It happens that human have some rights. They are called Human Rights: And that's - for most of us - not a Nintendo Game. For some it is. Morality is flexible.

It is about Human Rights, there you are right...but is it about torture? probably not..it is about abuse. It needs to be stopped. I don't do Nintindo, so no idea what you're talking about , Maybe your morality is flexible mine is not. But, I do know that when exceptionally lengthy coverage is given to this "scandal" and in the meantime no coverage is given to French prisons, or the even worse horrors of Arab prisons (or the other various horrid things happening in the world at the same time) it's called one thing, BIAS and I then must question what the goal is of this biased reporting. In my opinion it is to bring an increasingly negative appearance in Iraq and to undermine the good that is going on there. The same good and positive events that are not being reported. Why do this, only a few reasons I can think of which are to increase the chance of failure in Iraq and to strengthen the democratic parties chance in the upcoming election.

 

[Adam]

Umm...that's not exactly torture...(handcuffed to a railing on the walkway)

Humiliation does count as torture.

 

[Adam]

So that picture right there honestly shocked you? Honestly you think that is enough to make people go "Nick Berg deserved what he got", and say things like this is the "EXACT same acts"(quote from THIS board) that were happening before.
This picture is what people equate with Saddam's torture?

1) What has Nick Berg got to do with this thread? Stop trying to change the subject.

2) There were 15 pictures. View them all. Including thsoe with the corpses.

3) Saddam's prison-keepers also killed prisoners.

 

[kat]

humiliation can be a human rights violation, not "torture".

 

[Adam]

1.

• 1. Infliction of severe physical pain as a means of punishment or coercion.
• 2. An instrument or a method for inflicting such pain.

2. Excruciating physical or mental pain; agony: the torture of waiting in suspense.
3. Something causing severe pain or anguish.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=torture

 

[member 5645]

1) What has Nick Berg got to do with this thread? Stop trying to change the subject.

2) There were 15 pictures. View them all. Including thsoe with the corpses.

3) Saddam's prison-keepers also killed prisoners.

1> Give me a ****ing break Adam. I am describing responses and asking whether THAT is the picture that illicited such.

2> No, You link me to them. You all just keep saying 'the bad ones are in there'

3> Again, Show me the pictures that are so vile and are causing the response they are. So far I have seen one, and considering the apathatic response in so many other stories at so many other times- I still believe there to be more at play than people truly believing that picture is so shocking.

 

[member 5645]

Humiliation does count as torture.

So having a prisoner hooded and naked is what makes people give all these responses about how Abu Gharib is still the same torture zone as before?

 

[Adam]

The pictures rotate on that page on a menu driven by Javascript or something. Go there, click the right arrow. Your lame excuse of "I am unable to click the arrow" does not fool anyone.

 

[member 5645]

The pictures rotate on that page on a menu driven by Javascript or something. Go there, click the right arrow. Your lame excuse of "I am unable to click the arrow" does not fool anyone.

Where was that my excuse? I am making sure that you don't have some sort of way to say "no no,it's the other pictures that are so bad!"
I am looking at them! I still don't understand how, given the response to so many other actions taken by the USA and other countries, this one delivers such overwhelming, seemingly exaggerated, responses.

My point is that I do not see what the big deal is. The soldiers were wrong. They should, and are, being condemned. However, where are the pics that people are saying are the same as what Saddam did? Handuffing a guy to some railing? Making them stand naked?

Humiliation is as bad as raping your wife in front of you and then forcing you to watch her die?(which no one but us dumb Americans seemed to condemn near as loud as people are hopping on this bandwagon)?

The response to these picture shows either :
1>A feigned attempt to care
2>A shock that the USA's soldiers could do something like this
3>Caring because it's being done by the USA
4>There are public pictures that I have not seen and no one will just post in this thread.
5> A silent world populous that just got the nerve to speak up when our soldiers did it, but not when it happened at anytime before.

My goal is to find out which one, for the response, while justified if it were a common place response,is completely out of the ordinary. With people saying things like "this is the biggest scandal the US has had in the last 20 years", I fail to understand why, and you fail to explain AT ALL why it is.

 

[studentx]

I completely agree with PhatMonkey.

 

[Adam]

My point is that I do not see what the big deal is. The soldiers were wrong. They should, and are, being condemned. However, where are the pics that people are saying are the same as what Saddam did? Handuffing a guy to some railing? Making them stand naked?

Killing them...

 

[jimmy p]

However as you mentioned above, Saddams prison keepers killed prisoners. But of course, everyone would expect that really. But as soon as a Westerner does it, it becomes bombshell news.

 

[member 5645]

Killing them...

But you have not seen those pictures. No one in the public that is making all of these comments about this "scandal" has seen them. No one who has said how horrible the pictures are has seen the pictures (of what Ihave already said is by far the worst treatment in this situation).

Again, you fail to show me and explain which picture elicits such a response and why.

 

[member 5645]

However as you mentioned above, Saddams prison keepers killed prisoners. But of course, everyone would expect that really. But as soon as a Westerner does it, it becomes bombshell news.

Is that the reason? If so, why won't Adam and Palastration, OR ANYONE, say it??
If so, what does that say about all of the past conspiracies and accusations that such people have leveled against the USA? We are supposedly the great satan, however, the sheer shock that people are 'expressing' in this situation means that they either are feigning the shock, or don't actually believe us to be the great satan.

 

[jimmy p]

It just seems that the Western world is shocked though. Other than the Nick Berg incident (which people are undecided as when it happened or whatever) what have the other countries done?

Is it big news elsewhere in the world?

I have to agree with phatmonky on this one, and besides, these photos could have been photoshopped or editted. It is amazing what people will do just to make things look worse.

 

[member 5645]

It just seems that the Western world is shocked though. Other than the Nick Berg incident (which people are undecided as when it happened or whatever) what have the other countries done?

Is it big news elsewhere in the world?

I have to agree with phatmonky on this one, and besides, these photos could have been photoshopped or editted. It is amazing what people will do just to make things look worse.

What have other countries done? Well for one, my personal peeve lately is the government sponsored genocide happening in Sudan, and that doesn't make any news. Nor does anyone act shocked. Is anyone calling for the heads of those that are killing 10,000's?? nope!

All of the Arab sites I am on, it is the topic of constant reference. However, when I mention the problem with generalizing all Americans based on these people's actions, the topics simply end.

I believe the photos to be real. I simply also believe the response to be over exaggerated.