The Importance of Zero: Uncovering its Significance

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  • #51
strid said:
Infinity is not a number; it is the name for a concept.
Add the extended real number system to the list of things you're ignorant about.
strid said:
First you say that no one has said that nfinity is a number (which i interpret as that you mean it isnt).. than you say infinity is a number... you seem confused...

you don't seem to know so much either...
HallsOfIvy was careful to distinguish between numbers according to some definition on one hand, which may include none, one, or many concepts of infinity, and the formal real numbers on the other, which do not include any such objects. This is exactly the kind of rigor that you don't seem to grasp. Now stop correcting those here who have PhD's in mathematics by arguing poorly understood grade school mathematics.

To be completely honest, no one could care less whether you want to accept zero or infinity as numbers or not, so do whatever you want. Mathematicians have agreed to accept those concepts as meaningful because they are useful; whether you want that functionality depends on the results you are interested in.
 
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  • #52
infinity is NOT a number...

IF it is.. please tell me what the number you get when you take infinity + 1...

i can giive you 10 pages on the net saying that infinity is not a number...
 
  • #53
If it's on the 'net, it must be true! :smile:
 
  • #54
Infinity is a number, in some number systems (the extended reals, for example).

It is not an element of any of the sets of whole numbers, natural numbers, integers, rationals, reals, or complex numbers, though. Really, talking about infinity at all in reference to these systems is meaningless. When we do so, we are appealing to the fact that we can extend our systems to include infinity as an element. We do not use these extended systems in most situations, though, because if we do then many of our operations need to be redefined (infinity does not work naturally with ANY "arithmetic" operation). It is simply a matter of convenience.

The fact that you have been taught that infinity is strictly not a number is irrelevant. Indeed, from your perspective it is probably an ill-defined concept. This does not make it so from the perspective of mathematics.

An identity element, e, of a nonempty set S with respect to a binary operation \langle \ , \ \rangle: S \times S \longrightarrow S is one such that

\langle x \ , \ e \rangle = \langle e \ , \ x \rangle = x

for every x in S.

With respect to the integers and multiplication, 1 is an identity element. In the exact same way, with respect to the integers and addition, 0 is an identity element.

The natural numbers, integers, rationals, reals, and complex numbers are mathematical contructs. Trying to put them in direct correspondence with things in the world in which you exist is wrong. Sometimes we are lucky, and can discover some such constructs that model the world in a sufficiently good manner. Such constructs are usually described as "natural" or "intuitive," but these are purely subjective terms.

Let's say we have a set E with a binary operation \cdot. In addition, assume that it does not have an identity element with respect to \cdot, so there is no element x such that

x\cdot y = y \cdot x = y

for every y in E.

We can then define an object e by

e \cdot y = y \cdot e = y,\; \mbox{and} \; e \cdot e = e

for every y in E. Then the set E \cup \{ e \} does have an identity element with respect to \cdot. If E is the whole numbers, and \cdot is +, then we can perform precisely these steps to get an additive identity. We just call this identity element "zero" or 0.

Simple mathematical construction.

In contrast, we could define an "infinity element," i, of a set S with respect to a binary operation \langle \ , \ \rangle: S \times S \longrightarrow S by

\langle i \ , \ x \rangle = \langle x \ , \ i \rangle = i

for every x in S.

Under this definition, we can look at the natural numbers and addition. Is there any element satisfying this definition? No. Can we define one? Certainly. Define \infty by

\infty + x = x + \infty = \infty, \; \mbox{and} \; \infty + \infty = \infty

for every natural x. So now, the set \mathbb{N} \cup \{ \infty \} does have an infinity element under our definition, and \infty is a number, ie. an element of the set.
 
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  • #55
strid said:
infinity is NOT a number...

IF it is.. please tell me what the number you get when you take infinity + 1...

i can giive you 10 pages on the net saying that infinity is not a number...
What is the number system you're working with?
 
  • #56
I bet they say "infinity is not a real number", or that the real is implicit. Check your definitoins.

There is the extended real line which possesses plus and minus infinity. And then infinity plus one = infinity by continuity.

There is also the extended complex plane which has the point at infinity.

Then there are infinite cardinal numbers, and more than that there are the surreal and hyperreals that all have some notion of infinity being a useful number IN THAT SYSTEM.
 
  • #57
Dear god, where did that discussion go...


strid: Like I've tried to tell you before, and don't take this the bad way, you relatively have no idea what you're talking about.
I won't try to take this discussion any further, because I feel you won't listen anyway.

Telos- I didn't phrase myself correctly. What I should have said is you can't explain complex Mathematical notions to someone non-academic who won't listen.
And just for kicks- suppose I was a random guy from the street. How would you connect a Galois Group to my everyday life? :biggrin:
 
  • #58
\infty + x = x + \infty = \infty

Is everyone really sure of that? In the sense of an ordinal number?

The following idea is Cantor's: "Following the logical definition of w, Cantor further devised the concept of even larger sets. If you imagine w to be the order, or size, of the set {0, 1, ...} of all countable numbers, this set could not include w because w is Inf. Adding w to that set would produce a set 1 bigger than w, which Cantor denoted w + 1. It must be noted however that Cantor did not consider 1 + w to be the same as w + 1: the former meaning the set of one element, {0} + {0, 1, ...} [the Infinite Set] = {0, 1, ...}, the later meaing the set {0, 1, ...} + {w} = {0, 1, ..., w}. Thus we have the somewhat startling result that 1 + w = w but w + 1 > w." http://starship.python.net/crew/timehorse/new_math.html
 
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  • #59
You are right, of course, if you are using Cantor's definitions. I wasn't.

My definition of an "infinite element" doesn't work out if you try to use it in some other examples anyways. But it does in the simple context that I needed it :wink:
 
  • #60
WEll, the arithmetic of the ordinals and the cardinal doesn't have to be the same. Something that the OP probably ouwld strenuously object to
 
  • #61
Or to throw something else into the mix, if H is an infinite hyperreal number, then H + 1 is simply a different, infinite, hyperreal number whose value is one more than H. (IOW, (H+1) - H = 1)
 
  • #62
strid said:
was thikning of not posting anymore here but this was to ridicolous...

First you say that no one has said that nfinity is a number (which i interpret as that you mean it isnt).. than you say infinity is a number... you seem confused...

Not so much confused as typistically inept- I meant to type "no one has said (in this thread) that infinity is NOT a number- except you."

you don't seem to know so much either... join the club! (note the sarcasm)

That's a club I'm a charter member of!

Infinity IS NOT a number...
Surprised to hear a Super Mentor say that with more than 4000 posts...

Infinity is not a number; it is the name for a concept.

And you STILL haven't said what you think a number is! I was under the impression that ALL numbers are concepts. As I said, infinity is not a real number: i.e. it is not a member of the set of real numbers, defined for example by Dedekind cuts, or equivalence classes of sequences of rational numbers, etc. There are a number of different "infinities" all of which are "numbers" in the general sense- anything that is in one of the various systems that are considered "sets of numbers". If you don't like that general sense, please tell us what definition of number you are using.
 
  • #63
From what we can gather he wishes for numbers to be the "things" that have all arithmetic operations defined on them, thus necessarily if we accept any "number" exists so must zero (n-n) and so must n/0. Thus whatever he thinks numbers are he must necessarily accpet 0 and 1/0 are such. Despite being adamant that one isn't and one ought not to be.
 
  • #64
strid said:
I know that the "discovery" (rather invention) of the number zero was revolutionary and is seen as VERY important...

I've always had some suspicion to the zero by some unknown reason... I decided some weeks ago to figure out what it is that is wrong with the zero...

So could someone please tell me in what ways the zero is SO very important...

What I've thought of yet is that the zero doesn't exist in reality but is just an invention to make stuff work.. but what?

What if you had nothing, do you have 1 or -1? none...
 
  • #65
As stated before:
Let's say I grant you that any number that has an arithmatic operation that loads solution which doesn't exist will not exist
0 doesn't exist.
2 - 2 leads to 0, which doesn't exist, therefore 2 doesn't exist
therefore ALL numbers don't exist

Also:
10 = 1*10^1 + 0*10^0 but 0 doesn't exist, so 10 doesn't exist. Well damn...


THAT'S why 0 exists.
 
  • #66
Alkatran said:
As stated before:
Let's say I grant you that any number that has an arithmatic operation that loads solution which doesn't exist will not exist
0 doesn't exist.
2 - 2 leads to 0, which doesn't exist, therefore 2 doesn't exist
therefore ALL numbers don't exist

Also:
10 = 1*10^1 + 0*10^0 but 0 doesn't exist, so 10 doesn't exist. Well damn...


THAT'S why 0 exists.

ehm... there is no ogic in that...

why shouldn't 2 exist just because 2-2 equals nothing? it is as sayig that if i have 2 apples, and I take away 2 apples there are none left, hence there isn't anything such as apples...the same goes for the 10 stuff

I've been totallly misinterpreted in this topic, which might partly be because of my unclear statements, but I still insist on the fact that the infinity is not a number but a concept. My point from the beginning was that 0 is as much number as infinity, and if now you guys are saying that infinity IS a number than, for you 0 is of course a number as well... but for those of us that think that infinity is not a number (there are many of us) the zero becomes quite interesting...

I might fbe criticesed for this analogy but it is sort of like this:
There isn't a number infinity just as there isn't a temperature less than 300K. It just doesn't exist (how we now may define exist :))...
 
  • #67
strid said:
I've been totallly misinterpreted in this topic, which might partly be because of my unclear statements, but I still insist on the fact that the infinity is not a number but a concept. My point from the beginning was that 0 is as much number as infinity, and if now you guys are saying that infinity IS a number than, for you 0 is of course a number as well... but for those of us that think that infinity is not a number (there are many of us) the zero becomes quite interesting...

No, you just don't seem to understand how mathematics works. Read my post on the last page if you want to see a mathematical basis for what zero is (from a certain perspective, of course; it is certainly not the only way to approach the problem!).
 
  • #68
Strid, at no point have you ever said what you think a number is. We have all carefully qualified what we're talking about, and you have not.

Nor have you been able to explani why 0 isn't one of these numbers. But then you can't explain what a nubmer is so that isn't surprising. The best we've come up with is that it isn't a nubmer because 1/0 doesn't exist in the Reals (or whatever system you're using). So?

This is the difference between doing mathematics, and waffling on about numbers being temperatures and stuff like that.

I take my complex numbers to be the one point compactification of the plane - it makes complex analysis so much nicer to write out - and that has a point at infinity.
 
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  • #69
strid said:
I might fbe criticesed for this analogy but it is sort of like this:
There isn't a number infinity just as there isn't a temperature less than 300K. It just doesn't exist (how we now may define exist :))...
You opened the door : the temperature in the room where I'm typing this right now is less than 300K (it is ~295K).

Now let's get you to define "number", wot ?
 
  • #70
In the set of natural numbers, 0 does not exist. This causes problems if we want to use this, we would struggle to define how many apples there are in a bowel consisting purely of bananas, that is its practical importance.

Mathematically, the additive identity plays a greater importance, for example once we build up our set of axioms of the real numbers into theorems we can such results as, if:

ab = 0

then

a = 0

or

b = 0

or

a and b = 0

This is highly useful and allows us to solve many equations. By the properties of real numbers, 0 is a real number. I would highly suggest you look up what real numbers are because I have a strong feeling you are not aware of this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_Numbers

Real numbers are not something mathematicians pull out of thin air, they are very well constructed. You may make your own set of numbers that does not include 0, but out of all sub sets of real numbers an uncountable amount of them don't include 0, that is not that important.

However I would gladly like to see you design a workable and practical number system without ever using 0, I would be very impressed if you can construct something as or more useful than what we have.
 
  • #71
strid said:
I've been totallly misinterpreted in this topic, which might partly be because of my unclear statements, but I still insist on the fact that the infinity is not a number but a concept. My point from the beginning was that 0 is as much number as infinity, and if now you guys are saying that infinity IS a number than, for you 0 is of course a number as well... but for those of us that think that infinity is not a number (there are many of us) the zero becomes quite interesting...

I might fbe criticesed for this analogy but it is sort of like this:
There isn't a number infinity just as there isn't a temperature less than 300K. It just doesn't exist (how we now may define exist :))...
On the contrary, we understand you perfectly well.
You are clinging to your own personal fantasies as to what numbers OUGHT to be, and, because fantasies are fuzzy, warm and cozy, you want to live with them, rather than learn how to think by means of rigourous logical systems, which you fear because they seem strange, cold and hard to you.
You are locked in emotionalism, that's all there is to it.
It is not difficult to understand you at all.
After all, your condition is quite prevalent in the human race..

And, you seem to have missed out something: Everyone here agrees that infinity is NOT, for examples: a natural number, integer, rational number or real number.
The fact that there are lots of number systems in which infinity cannot be regarded as a number does not make it impossible to comstruct legitimate number systems in which infinity IS a number.
It is really not anything more special than that "most" fractions cannot be considered as natural numbers, but ARE rational and real numbers.
 
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  • #72
Gokul43201 said:
You opened the door : the temperature in the room where I'm typing this right now is less than 300K (it is ~295K).

Now let's get you to define "number", wot ?

sorry.. i mistyped... of course i meant either less than -300' C or less than 0K...


Will try to answer on what I'm critized on right now...

My definition on number (in this context) is a quantity... It can be anything quantitive including lengths and other such stuff...

My first reason to think that 0 was not a "number" was that I saw it as much number as infinity... It is sort of like that the numbers 0,0000...1 to 10^9999... are possible to exist in a totally different way than zero an infinity...
Its like that zero is infinitely small while infinity is infinitely big..,,

And the stuff with that you can't divide with zero, is that you can divide by all other "numbers"... so the fact that you can't divide vy zero makes it somewaht different from other numbers...
 
  • #73
In that case you're definition of "numbers" is completely different from any mathematical one. So you can quit worrying about mathematics. The problem isn't mathematics it is yours.

Incidentally, water freezes at 0 degrees C, so zero exists there as a measurement.
 
  • #74
strid said:
so the fact that you can't divide vy zero makes it somewaht different from other numbers...
This is only true if your system does not define division by zero. For example, taking the square root of a number that is not a perfect square is impossible in the rationals, making those numbers different from other numbers. You claim we should then take these so-called "numbers" out of the system, instead of finding a meaningful extension of our system. The latter choice brings new vistas of mathematics, while the former choice is a step backwards. Your personal problem with zero is echoed by others' problems with other aspects of other systems. Some may not want any numbers other than 1, because it makes no sense to define a new number other than a whole object. You may argue against this, but I'm sure you can see that your arguments will be just as futile as ours are to your belief.
 
  • #75
hypermorphism said:
This is only true if your system does not define division by zero.

is there any system where it is defined??
 
  • #76
Dear God do you not read the posts here? The extended real numbers, the extended complex plane, both allow you to define 1/0 (though nto 0/0 for obvious issues with continuity).
 
  • #77
matt grime said:
Dear God do you not read the posts here? The extended real numbers, the extended complex plane, both allow you to define 1/0 (though nto 0/0 for obvious issues with continuity).

Hold on, they do? Don't you need limits for it to make any sense?
 
  • #78
Nope. However, you have to be careful with them; ordinary arithmetical facts like x + 1 != x don't always hold in these systems.
 
  • #79
Hurkyl said:
Nope. However, you have to be careful with them; ordinary arithmetical facts like x + 1 != x don't always hold in these systems.

I'm assuming that you're talking about +- infinity (or in the case of the complexe numbers, complexe infinity)?
 
  • #80
I think the OP may have just read this book, which over-hypes the importance of zero from a historical perspective.
 
  • #81
ok... if now 1/0 is defined... than what is the differnce between 1/0 and 2/0? are they equal or what?
 
  • #82
If \frac{1}{0}=\infty, then you could say \frac{2}{0}=\frac{2*1}{2*0}=\frac{2}{2}*\frac{1}{0}=1*\infty=\infty

Heh.
 
  • #83
Moo Of Doom said:
If \frac{1}{0}=\infty, then you could say \frac{2}{0}=\frac{2*1}{2*0}=\frac{2}{2}*\frac{1}{0}=1*\infty=\infty

Heh.


yeah right...

you can also say that

1/0 = inf.
2/0= 2 *(1/0) =2*inf.


or...
2/0= 2/ (4*0) =0,5* (1/0)= 0,5 * inf.

As you see you can quite many answers... :)
 
  • #84
Again, Strid, you have not in stated in which system you are talking about. Why don't you actually do that?

In Cu{\infty} 1/0=2/0=\infty.

This is "by continuity".

You do understand that things in mathematis essentially follow from the definitions and not your real life intuition?
 
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  • #85
strid said:
yeah right...

you can also say that

1/0 = inf.
2/0= 2 *(1/0) =2*inf.


or...
2/0= 2/ (4*0) =0,5* (1/0)= 0,5 * inf.

As you see you can quite many answers... :)
And why don't you think that we may have 2*inf=inf and 0.5*inf=inf?
 
  • #86
you seem to missed the sarcasm again.. i answered Moo of Doom... read his post before criticing mine...
 
  • #87
"criticing"... what a delightful new word in English!
Where did you find it?
 
  • #88
Strid, why don't you sit down and write out the lits of rules that your "numbers" must satisfy. Then attempt to show if there is or isn#t a model of this system.

Because the "numbers" in mathematics are axiomatic constructs. Stop trying to use your "intution" on them. We have axioms, we know they are not self contradictory since we can produce a model of them. And we can deduce results about them. Notice, we deduce things, we don't make wild and unmotivated guesses that we insiste must be true even after it has been carefully explained to us why this guess is wrong.
 
  • #89
Just to help you along a bit with that list of rules we're waiting for, strid:

Do you want the following rules to apply to your numbers:
1) Whenever I add two numbers, I'll get a number back.
2) Whenever I multiply two numbers, I'll get a number back.

Will your system have these two rules, for example?
 
  • #90
Also, here are two examples of lists of rules (axioms) that you are (hopefully) already familiar with:
A ring (specifically, a ring which is an integral domain), a model of which is the set of integers under addition and multiplication.
A field, a model of which is the real numbers under addition and multiplication.
 
  • #91
zero is very interesting

i agree that its use in math is often to make things "work" as you put it. when the derivative of a formula is zero, that tells you something. you need to "plug in" zero to see when it happens.

when zero comes out as an aswer, it takes the form of a word more than anything else. it could be one of many words:
no, not, none, never, stopped, constant, initial (position, velocity, whatever your flavor). it could even mean "yes".

it's value lies in it's use as a tool, because in use it has no value.

i would rocommend posing this question in a philosophy or english forum, just for fun.
 
  • #92
arildno said:
Just to help you along a bit with that list of rules we're waiting for, strid:

Do you want the following rules to apply to your numbers:
1) Whenever I add two numbers, I'll get a number back.
2) Whenever I multiply two numbers, I'll get a number back.

Will your system have these two rules, for example?

Tanks for the beginnning and I will add on 2 other points that just fit your list well...

3) Whenever I subtract two numbers, I'll get a number back.
4) Whenever I divide two numbers, I'll get a number back.

Seems logical to have these 2 added... and then... Zero doesn't fit the defintition of number anymore...
 
  • #93
Well, it does and it doesn't. Since we can subtract x from x we get 0, if x is a number so must zero be. And thus we must be able to divide by zero. Thus *you* must be careful not to be inconsistent, since these are *your* defintions of Strid's Numbers.
 
  • #94
strid said:
Tanks for the beginnning and I will add on 2 other points that just fit your list well...

3) Whenever I subtract two numbers, I'll get a number back.
4) Whenever I divide two numbers, I'll get a number back.

Seems logical to have these 2 added... and then... Zero doesn't fit the defintition of number anymore...

So you drop 0 from the set of numbers, and then by point (3) -- or, really, by point (1) -- nothing's a number, since a+(-a)=0 and 0 isn't a number any more. This leaves you with the null set! :-p

Edit: I started to post before Matt Grime, and he wrote just about the same thing I did, only slightly more eloquently.
 
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  • #95
strid said:
Tanks for the beginnning and I will add on 2 other points that just fit your list well...

3) Whenever I subtract two numbers, I'll get a number back.
4) Whenever I divide two numbers, I'll get a number back.

Seems logical to have these 2 added... and then... Zero doesn't fit the defintition of number anymore...

Actually if you allow rational numbers and negative numbers, you don't need those two.
 
  • #96
matt grime said:
Well, it does and it doesn't. Since we can subtract x from x we get 0, if x is a number so must zero be. And thus we must be able to divide by zero. Thus *you* must be careful not to be inconsistent, since these are *your* defintions of Strid's Numbers.


yeah.. missed that one... didnt think very much on that as the 2 first rules were written by someone else... :smile:

let me rephrase those rules...

1) Whenever I add two numbers, I'll get a defined answer.
2) Whenever I multiply two numbers, I'll get a defined answer.
3) Whenever I subtract two numbers, I'll get a defined answer.
4) Whenever I divide two numbers, I'll get a defined answer.

EDIT: This also means that complex numbers and irrationals numbers are included in the difinition... please point out if theses rules excludes any number (except zero if you want to have that)
 
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  • #97
So, you've got a set S, of "strid numbers", and you're defining binary operations +,-,*, and / on them from SxS to the "defined answers". Now, you do not state what a defined answer is, so who knows what on Earth you're talking about. In what set are you talking about. You do not include irrationals or complexes in the definition at all. In fact, all you're doing is seemingly specifying the "non-zero elements of a field, or division ring", though as we don't know what a "defined answer" is we cannot possibly say for sure.
 
  • #98
Does this accurately describe your position?

strid said:
1) Whenever I add two numbers, I'll get a defined answer.
2) Whenever I multiply two numbers, I'll get a defined answer.
3) Whenever I subtract two numbers, I'll get a defined answer.
4) Whenever I divide two numbers, I'll get a defined answer.

EDIT: This also means that complex numbers and irrationals numbers are included in the difinition... please point out if theses rules excludes any number (except zero if you want to have that)

Let \mathfrak{S} be the set of Strid numbers and \mathfrak{D} be the set of Strid-defined numbers.

For s_1,s_2\in\mathfrak{S}:

1. s_1+s_2\in\mathfrak{D}
2. s_1\cdot s_2\in\mathfrak{D}
3. s_1-s_2\in\mathfrak{D}
4. s_1\div s_2\in\mathfrak{D}

Strid's Conjecture: \mathfrak{S}=\mathbb{C}\backslash0, \mathfrak{D}=\mathbb{C} is consistent.
 
  • #99
Yes, and it works for any ring too where S is subset of the set of units and D is the ring, so all strid has done is give (some of) the axioms of a ring, assuming the reading of "defined" is as you say (and that is how i'd read it too).

Of course, there's nothing there that requires the operation + is commutative, and that + and * are associative, or that distribution holds. In fact there is nothing to suggest + and * ought to even be addition and multiplication and so on. Ie we do not know that a+b-b=a, or that z/z=1, or even if there is a mutlipicative identity.



Other examples include S the set of nxn invertible matrices and D the set of all matrices.
 
  • #100
matt grime said:
Of course, there's nothing there that requires the operation + is commutative, and that + and * are associative, or that distribution holds. In fact there is nothing to suggest + and * ought to even be addition and multiplication and so on. Ie we do not know that a+b-b=a, or that z/z=1, or even if there is a mutlipicative identity.

You're absolutely right about that, and really I should have either added that explicitly or left off the conjecture. I meant to express that the four Strid operations mapped 1-to-1 with the same operations in \mathbb{C}. Otherwise it's pretty simple to make the conjecture true for arbitrary \mathfrak{S},\mathfrak{D} with constant functions. :-p

What's really funny for me is that, taking this process to the logical extreme, we have the conjecture as "\mathfrak{S}\cup0 is a ring", which really defeats Strid's purpose.

Oh, and I like your point on units... it would work with \mathfrak{S}=\{1\}, \mathfrak{D}=\mathbb{Q}. :smile:
 
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