Understanding Output Voltages for a Center Tapped Transformer

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on understanding the output voltages of a center-tapped transformer in the context of a full wave rectifier. Participants explore the phase relationship between the voltages and the distribution of amplitudes, delving into theoretical and mathematical aspects of transformer operation.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants explain that the voltages at the terminals of a center-tapped transformer are 180 degrees out of phase due to the alternating nature of the voltage.
  • One participant suggests visualizing the center-tap transformer as two identical transformers to clarify phasing.
  • Another participant describes the relationship between the voltages at the terminals A and B, stating that the voltage difference can be expressed mathematically as VAB=VA-VB.
  • It is proposed that the voltage between the extreme nodes and the central tap is half of the voltage difference between the extreme nodes, based on the distribution of turns in the transformer.
  • Some participants argue that the 180-degree phase difference is a result of choosing the center tap as the zero reference point, affecting the perceived voltage at the terminals.
  • There is a contention regarding the interpretation of phase difference, with some participants asserting that it is a matter of reference point choice rather than a true phase shift.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the nature of the phase difference and the implications of reference points in voltage measurements. There is no consensus on the interpretation of the phase relationship or the explanation of amplitude distribution.

Contextual Notes

Some assumptions regarding the winding direction and number of turns are made, but these are not fully explored or resolved in the discussion. The mathematical steps involved in deriving the relationships between the voltages are also not completely clarified.

JC2000
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TL;DR
Unable to put a finger on exactly why the following holds :

1. The voltage between the extreme nodes and central tap of the transformer is half of the voltage difference between the extreme nodes.

2. A 180 degree phase difference exists between the voltage at extreme nodes.
While trying to understand the working of a full wave rectifier I was unable to precisely understand the working of the central tap transformer.

Edit 1 : The voltages are out of phase by 180 degrees as voltage is alternating(?) So the only thing I don't understand is how the distribution of amplitudes occurs...

Thank you for your time!





untitled.png
 
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It might help to think of the Center Tap transformer as two identical transformers connected like this.
7WjGW.png

The dots show phasing.
 
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JC2000 said:
Edit 1 : The voltages are out of phase by 180 degrees as voltage is alternating(?) So the only thing I don't understand is how the distribution of amplitudes occurs...

Thank you for your time!





View attachment 256711
The secondary winding is wound in the same direction and when excited by same AC magnetic flux, the potentials of terminals A and B with respect to the center tap point are:

VA=Vmsin(ωt)
VB=Vmsin(ωt+π)=-Vmsin(ωt)

Per definition, the voltage is the difference of potentials.
So, how much is VAB=VA-VB ?
 
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JC2000 said:
why the following holds :

1. The voltage between the extreme nodes and central tap of the transformer is half of the voltage difference between the extreme nodes.
Voltage is induced in each turn of the secondary. Half the turns are in each half of the secondary. So half the total voltage is in each half of the secondary.

JC2000 said:
2. A 180 degree phase difference exists between the voltage at extreme nodes.
This is due to the choice of centre tap as zero reference. On your diagram, the centre tap is shown as ground or reference potential.
Starting at one end tap, the voltage increases in magnitude linearly as you go along the winding. If either end is taken as zero reference, the voltage at half way and at the opposite end will be in phase, the halfway one being half the amplitude of the other end.
It is by choosing to refer to the centre tap that you force one half winding to have an opposite voltage to the other. The centre tap is always half way between the ends. so when the top half goes +ve, the bottom must go -ve and vice versa, so that the mid point can stay at zero.

Incidentally, I don't like Zoki's derivation, because there is no time shift causing the "phase" difference. The difference is that the amplitude is reversed simply by choosing a different zero reference point.
I would say
VA=Vmsin(ωt)
VB=-Vmsin(ωt) because VB is measured in the opposite sense to VA
That is, VB is antiphase with VA, which looks like Vmsin(ωt+π)
 
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Merlin3189 said:
The difference is that the amplitude is reversed simply by choosing a different zero reference point.
I would say
VA=Vmsin(ωt)
VB=-Vmsin(ωt) because VB is measured in the opposite sense to VA
That is, VB is antiphase with VA, which looks like Vmsin(ωt+π)
Agreed.
I wrote that solely for math purposes, in order to OP see 180° phase difference reffered to in two different ways
 
JC2000 said:
Edit 1 : The voltages are out of phase by 180 degrees as voltage is alternating(?) So the only thing I don't understand is how the distribution of amplitudes occurs..

According to Faraday's law, assuming that from A to G(ground) and from G to B have the same winding direction and number of turns, since the magnitude and phase of the magnetic flux flowing through them are the same, V(AG)=V(GB).

Because V(GB) =-V (BG), V(AG)=-V(BG), which means that V(A) and V(B) are 180 degrees out of phase with respect to G (ground).
 
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JC2000 said:
TL;DR Summary: Unable to put a finger on exactly why the following holds :

1. The voltage between the extreme nodes and central tap of the transformer is half of the voltage difference between the extreme nodes.

2. A 180 degree phase difference exists between the voltage at extreme nodes.

While trying to understand the working of a full wave rectifier I was unable to precisely understand the working of the central tap transformer.

Edit 1 : The voltages are out of phase by 180 degrees as voltage is alternating(?) So the only thing I don't understand is how the distribution of amplitudes occurs...

Thank you for your time!





View attachment 256711
I modified your drawing to try to answer, "why is it that they (L1, L2) are 180 degrees out of phase, although when you use L1 and L2 without a neutral for a 240 volt circuit L1 and L2 are not out of phase?
Which is not really true it is about the reference. Anyway, here is the modified drawing that might help someone else.
Mikek
Phase explanation.jpg
 
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