What is the impact of storms on submarines?

[Robert House]

Here is a scenario to further explain. Let's say I am traveling inside of a submarine. I travel within a depth of 100 to 600 feet deep or 4 to 19 atmospheres. How would I and my submarine be affected if there were a hurricane, tsunami, or hurricane above the ocean.

Furthermore, does the strength of ocean currents decrease deeper you go?

 

[rootone]

Strong winds at the surface can cause unusual currents in the water (a storm surge), at the surface,
but I doubt the effect extends to deep water beyond say around 10m.
As for ocean currents in general they tend to be very much the product of local geography,
so what applies in the N Atlantic (for example), could be very different to what applies in the Southern ocean near Antartica.

 

[berkeman]

Here is a scenario to further explain. Let's say I am traveling inside of a submarine. I travel within a depth of 100 to 600 feet deep or 4 to 19 atmospheres. How would I and my submarine be affected if there were a hurricane, tsunami, or hurricane above the ocean.

Furthermore, does the strength of ocean currents decrease deeper you go?

Welcome to the PF.

Is this a military submarine? If so, the biggest impact on operations doesn't come from any small change in the currents. I can think of at least two other important effects. Can yoiu say what they may be?

 

[Robert House]

Welcome to the PF.

Is this a military submarine? If so, the biggest impact on operations doesn't come from any small change in the currents. I can think of at least two other important effects. Can yoiu say what they may be?

It could be a military submarine or a more recreational submarine.

Yep! What are those effects?

 

[berkeman]

Yep! What are those effects?

You tell us...

 

[Robert House]

Strong winds at the surface can cause unusual currents in the water (a storm surge), at the surface,
but I doubt the effect extends to deep water beyond say around 10m.
As for ocean currents in general they tend to be very much the product of local geography,
so what applies in the N Atlantic (for example), could be very different to what applies in the Southern ocean near Antartica.

What about tsunami's and hurricanes? That wouldn't affect submarine travel deeper than 10 meters either?

 

[berkeman]

What about tsunami's and hurricanes? That wouldn't affect submarine travel deeper than 10 meters either?

One of those would. Which one?

 

[Robert House]

You tell us...

Oh. Didn't know you were asking me. Is it communications and marine life interference?

 

[Robert House]

One of those would. Which one?

I'm going to guess tsunami. Hurricanes usually affect the first few meters at most. But that would depend on the size since some hurricanes are stronger than others.

 

[berkeman]

Oh. Didn't know you were asking me. Is it communications and marine life interference?

Not exactly communication... What else is important on a military submarine?

 

[Robert House]

Not exactly communication... What else is important on a military submarine?

The extended duration life support systems is the most important on any submarine.

 

[rootone]

What about tsunami's and hurricanes? That wouldn't affect submarine travel deeper than 10 meters either?

I don't think a hurricane would, water is much denser than air, so it takes a lot of wind kinetic energy to move water a relatively small amount.
Tsunamis on the other hand are the result of a lot of energy which already is in the water, and probably could be a hazard for a submarine at any depth,
if the submarine is somewhat close to the point of origin, such as an undersea Earthquake.

 

[Robert House]

I don't think a hurricane would, water is much denser than air, so it takes a lot of wind kenetic energy to move water a relatively small amount.
Tsunamis on the other hand are the result of a lot of energy which already is in the water, and probably could be a hazard for a submarine at any depth,
if the submarine is somewhat close to the point of origin, such as an undersea Earthquake.

What about strong waves? Let's say a rogue wave? Doesn't wave energy decreases the deeper you go?

 

[rootone]

Waves on the sea are surface phenomena.
They may give an indication of what is happening below the surface, but can't create the conditions, beyond stirring up some of the seafloor material when the wave breaks upon arrival at a shoreline.

 

[berkeman]

The extended duration life support systems is the most important on any submarine.

Pffft. Military submarines can stay underwater for decades. The only limiting factor would be food, and even after their standard load of great food runs out, they probably have at least a year of MREs stored. They probably have a way to harvest fish underwater at some point, when necessary, but I'm just guessing at that. So no, that's not what I was referring to.

Related hint -- Have you read Tom Clancy's novel, "The Hunt for Red October"? Great book.

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71REkT0NehL.jpg

 

[davenn]

What about tsunami's and hurricanes?

Tsunami's , tho they travel through the full depth of the ocean/sea, their effects out in the deep ocean are negligible
Ships on the surface don't even feel their passing. I don't have any references for submarines, but I wouldn't expect the
effects to be anything significantly different than it is for ships on the surface.
Tsunami's are only evident when the water shallows and the waves build up in heightDave

 

[davenn]

Waves on the sea are surface phenomena.

only the wind driven waves

see my earlier post re tsunamisD

 

[davenn]

Pffft. Military submarines can stay underwater for decades. The only limiting factor would be food, and even after their standard load of great food runs out, they probably have at least a year of MREs stored. They probably have a way to harvest fish underwater at some point, when necessary, but I'm just guessing at that. So no, that's not what I was referring to.

Related hint -- Have you read Tom Clancy's novel, "The Hunt for Red October"? Great book.

yeah a great story, try and watch the movie at least once a year

actually pretty much all T.C's novels are very goodDave

 

[Robert House]

Pffft. Military submarines can stay underwater for decades. The only limiting factor would be food, and even after their standard load of great food runs out, they probably have at least a year of MREs stored. They probably have a way to harvest fish underwater at some point, when necessary, but I'm just guessing at that. So no, that's not what I was referring to.

Related hint -- Have you read Tom Clancy's novel, "The Hunt for Red October"? Great book.

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71REkT0NehL.jpg

Just requested the book. Any more good submarine novel recommendations?

 

[rootone]

see my earlier post re tsunamis

I agree in the case of tsunami you have a pressure wave inside the water at all depths, regardless of 'normal' waves at the surface.
I would not to want to be in a submerged submarine close to the epicenter of a big seafloor earthquake.

 

[berkeman]

Just requested the book.

After you read the book, watch the film version. That's the right order, IMO.

Any more good submarine novel recommendations?

For entertainment value and intellectual challenges, I recommend Crimson Tide, but The Hunt for Red October is much more about the questions you've asked in this thread...

http://media1.picsearch.com/is?aKQZCxYYdTOph5A9IUgeBNxsH1E54kSbznlyWyIdIcI&height=304

 

[Robert House]

I agree in the case of tsunami you have a pressure wave inside the water at all depths, regardless of 'normal' waves at the surface.
I would not to want to be in a submerged submarine close to the epicenter of a big seafloor earthquake.

Are certain bodies of water are more vulnerable to tsunamis?

 

[berkeman]

Are certain bodies of water are more vulnerable to tsunamis?

Yes, Google Tsunami Alert Zones...

 

[davenn]

I would not to want to be in a submerged submarine close to the epicenter of a big seafloor earthquake.

the only thing a ship or submarine feels from a close by earthquake is the pulse of the P wave as the S and other waves don't travel through the ocean
people in boats often report that the passing of the P wave feels like the boat had run aground

it would be interesting to know the effect on a ship or sub that was right over the fault when it ruptured as to if they would feel the
effect of the drop or pushing up of the ocean

 

[rootone]

Yes there are parts of the Earth where undersea quakes are not rare, and nearby land is vulnerable.
Low lying islands in Indonesia are some of the most at risk

 

[davenn]

Are certain bodies of water are more vulnerable to tsunamis?

Yes, Google Tsunami Alert Zones...

yup, or anywhere there are significant undersea fault zones or volcanic islands
this includes all of the Pacific Basin, Indian Ocean, Mediterranean Sea for starters

EDIT: ... I should include the 3 primary causes of tsunamis
undersea earthquake or one on land close to shore
undersea volcanic eruption
landslide either undersea or one on land close to shore that goes into the sea

classic example of the last one was a huge mountain side landslide that went into Lituya Bay, Alaska
landslide that produced the worlds largest recorded tsunami ... 1720 ft

http://www.bing.com/search?q=Litya+bay+tsunami&src=IE-SearchBox&FORM=IENTTR&conversationid=D

 

[Robert House]

yup, or anywhere there are significant undersea fault zones or volcanic islands
this includes all of the Pacific Basin, Indian Ocean, Mediterranean Sea for starters

EDIT: ... I should include the 3 primary causes of tsunamis
undersea earthquake or one on land close to shore
undersea volcanic eruption
landslide either undersea or one on land close to shore that goes into the sea

classic example of the last one was a huge mountain side landslide that went into Lituya Bay, Alaska
landslide that produced the worlds largest recorded tsunami ... 1720 ft

http://www.bing.com/search?q=Litya+bay+tsunami&src=IE-SearchBox&FORM=IENTTR&conversationid=D

So a Submarine would theoretically be unaffected if it were far enough away from the shoreline.

 

[berkeman]

So a Submarine would theoretically be unaffected if it were far enough away from the shoreline.

What do you think...?

(Can you sense now how the PF works...?)

 

[davenn]

So a Submarine would theoretically be unaffected if it were far enough away from the shoreline.

out in open ocean, yes
an example ... the big Japan quake of 2011 ( M9.0) was centred around 130km offshore of NE Honshu
but it's waves only really became noticeable around 2 - 5 km offshore. Further out is was no different than
being in a large natural swell of a few metresD

 

[davenn]

What do you think...?

(Can you sense now how the PF works...?)

oops ... we were typing at the same time ... sorry

 

[berkeman]

oops ... we were typing at the same time ... sorry

Oh sure, make me go back and undelete my post...

 

[Robert House]

What do you think...?

(Can you sense now how the PF works...?)

.
You're trying to make me think/work my way to the answer rather than just giving it to me.

I like it!

 

[berkeman]

.
You're trying to make me think/work my way to the answer rather than just giving it to me.

I like it!

Perfect. Welcome to the PF

 

[berkeman]

BTW, the reason I suggested the order = book, movie for The Hunt For Red October was because of how some nuances in the book were handled in the movie. If you have the time, I think that's the best order for enjoying them both in series. They are both great.

But, to save time, I'd now recommend watching the movie first to get some answers to your questions, and for entertainment. The book is still good to follow up with, since Clancy is so great at weaving military/technical details into multiple story lines at once. What an artist.

 

[Robert House]

BTW, the reason I suggested the order = book, movie for The Hunt For Red October was because of how some nuances in the book were handled in the movie. If you have the time, I think that's the best order for enjoying them both in series. They are both great.

But, to save time, I'd now recommend watching the movie first to get some answers to your questions, and for entertainment. The book is still good to follow up with, since Clancy is so great at weaving military/technical details into multiple story lines at once. What an artist.

I requested both the book and movie from the library. Any other great Tom Clancy novels you recommend?

 

[berkeman]

Any other great Tom Clancy novels you recommend?

LOL. Pretty much all of them. His earliest ones are the best, IMO. His later ones with other authors lost some of his brilliant inter-weaving of plots, IMO. I reallly like how he does his research on the technical detiails, and carries several very detailed and loosely-related plots at once in the same book.

I also respect very much how he has built relationships with military folks as background research for his books, and he is also careful not to divulge lots of military secrets in his work. He included some important misinformation in his book about how to build a terrorist version of a nuke in "The Sum of all Fears", for example.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sum_of_All_Fears_(novel)

 

[dschlink]

Speaking as an ex-submariner, once you are down 100 meters, you don't feel anything. Ten meters is on the order of large waves, so their passage is quite noticeable and can be a real pain when you are trying to submerge. See Bernoulli Effect.

 

[RonL]

In all I have ever observed, there seems to be a continual back and forth motion of the water, I first noticed it during the BP repair operations in the Gulf of Mexico. (5,000' +/- )
Here is a shark cam off Cape Fear, that clearly shows the motion.
In tight quarters, would this motion present problems for a large submarine ?
https://explore.org/live-cams/player/shark-cam

 

[Robert House]

Speaking as an ex-submariner, once you are down 100 meters, you don't feel anything. Ten meters is on the order of large waves, so their passage is quite noticeable and can be a real pain when you are trying to submerge. See Bernoulli Effect.

You were a submariner? Can we talk privately? There are some other questions I had pertaining to submarines

 

[Robert House]

In all I have ever observed, there seems to be a continual back and forth motion of the water, I first noticed it during the BP repair operations in the Gulf of Mexico. (5,000' +/- )
Here is a shark cam off Cape Fear, that clearly shows the motion.
In tight quarters, would this motion present problems for a large submarine ?
https://explore.org/live-cams/player/shark-cam

The view from that cam is beautiful

 

[RonL]

The view from that cam is beautiful

When the new camera is online live, there should be more viewing time without the camera movement (that can get boring )

The motion of the water, that I was making reference to, is hard to see because of the cam operator making almost constant adjustments in following the larger fish (that is OK and the intended purpose of the camera ) My point was basically that the ocean seems to have this constant motion in any location and that storm affects are only around 30 or 40 meters below surface, as far as I know.

 

[Larry D]

One problem at these depths is likely to be noise. Sonar doesn't see much in these shallow depths in storm conditions.

 

[mcronald]

I have been in a submarine at 300 feet with a state seven sea above us off the coast of northern Norway. The ship was rolling so much that the captain called the bridge and ordered the ship to 400 feet "to keep the soup from slopping" at dinner. (1968)

 

[FactChecker]

I have been in a submarine at 300 feet with a state seven sea above us off the coast of northern Norway. The ship was rolling so much that the captain called the bridge and ordered the ship to 400 feet "to keep the soup from slopping" at dinner. (1968)

Wow! I would have never guessed that the disturbance would go that deep.

 

[Robert House]

I have been in a submarine at 300 feet with a state seven sea above us off the coast of northern Norway. The ship was rolling so much that the captain called the bridge and ordered the ship to 400 feet "to keep the soup from slopping" at dinner. (1968)

Were you in the navy? Do you have experience as a submariner?

 

[mcronald]

Medical officer aboard a Polaris class (boomer) submarine.

 

[Robert House]

Medical officer aboard a Polaris class (boomer) submarine.

You mind if I ask a few questions about submarines?

 

[mcronald]

I'll try my best but haven't been aboard one since 1968. I'm certain they are far more advanced now.

 

[Robert House]

I'll try my best but haven't been aboard one since 1968. I'm certain they are far more advanced now.

1. What are the psychological effects on staying inside of a submarine, submerged underwater for months? Is there any sort of cabin fever?

2. How did your submarines prevent CO2 from building up?

3. Was there ever any trouble with marine life? (Sharks, squids, jellyfish)

 

[mcronald]

I never found, as the medical officer, any severe mental problems. Interestingly for such close quarters there weren't any fights. By providing excellent ( for the military) food and flexibility in eating helped considerably. We had at least one movie per day. Our tour was 56 days submerged. The worst problem was the lack of out going communication--none and only three 17 word cables from home per patrol.

CO2 buid up was eliminated by CO2 scrubbers and I have no idea how they worked. Oxygen was produced on board by O2 generators using the hydrolysis of water. That is the beauty of a nuclear power plant.

As far as sea life the worst problem was when the fish died in the aquarium in the wardroom. Remember your encased in a hardened steel tube that can stand at least 700 foot of depth and the submarine weighed in at 8,000 tons and 450 feet long.