What is the reality of finding a perfect partner?

[Evo]

seconded. eww.

I love your avatar!

 

[Moonbear]

I couldn't even consider any guy that admits to reading or watching Oprah or Dr Phil.
That's just wrong.

Well, I could still consider him as long as he swears that the reading material was the only thing that was in the bathroom, or that he watches only for the comedy value (I can't stand Oprah, but Dr. Phil is pretty funny to watch sometimes).

 

[turbo]

I couldn't even consider any guy that admits to reading or watching Oprah or Dr Phil.
That's just wrong.

My wife sometimes watches this stuff while on the exercise bike. I would consider myself unclean if I paid more than passing attention. It is so lame!

 

[Mk]

Even ferrets fear Dr. Phil.

 

[saltydog]

I couldn't even consider any guy that admits to reading or watching Oprah or Dr Phil.
That's just wrong.

Jesus, don't tell them that Eve. You're just making it worst for everyone. And then I bet you complain about men and then wonder why. No doubt you'd think a man is a pus*y if he reads any of the books about having good relationships.

 

[Cosmo16]

I am reminded of a quote that tribdog made a while back. (I liked it so much it ended up in my myspace) here is is

"Watching Dr. Phil can lead to the harder stuff, Springer, Regis etc. Stuff you REALLY don't want to get into" - Tribdog

 

[Evo]

Jesus, don't tell them that Eve. You're just making it worst for everyone. And then I bet you complain about men and then wonder why.

Actually I don't complain about men in general because I don't believe in stereotypes, although there are numbers of men and women that fall into certain categories. If I had to choose, I would much rather spend an afternoon with some guy drinking beer and watching football than go shopping and have fake nails applied with some airhead woman, and I would rather sit at home with a good book than do either.

No doubt you'd think a man is a pus*y if he reads any of the books about having good relationships.

Yes. I have to admit that I would be concerned about anyone that reads any type of self help or relationship advice book. I don't want someone that has to learn how to fake a personality.

 

[saltydog]

If I had to choose, I would much rather spend an afternoon with some guy drinking beer and watching football

I'm afraid you're one out of 200 or so that would rather do that. Don't you think men want women to act like women and not like them? Same goes for guys acting like guys for women I think too. Most women I suspect hate with a passion their guys watching all that football! Ar you kidding me? A frickin' football widdow some of them are.

About the self-help books, might I ask you how do you suppose a man is to learn how to participate in a healthy relationship? He has to learn somehow. It's ain't comin' naturally that's for sure. Most men fail misserably on that front: they walk past the girls playing vollyball in single file leaving their Relationship-101 class. The girls interrupt their vigorous activity. Calm down but do now stop . . . just passing the ball about and do not look at the guys as they walk by . . . they know.

 

[saltydog]

I am reminded of a quote that tribdog made a while back. (I liked it so much it ended up in my myspace) here is is
"Watching Dr. Phil can lead to the harder stuff, Springer, Regis etc. Stuff you REALLY don't want to get into" - Tribdog

Dude, that's wrong on so many levels. Yes I watch Dr. Phil. Lots. But I like that sort of stuff. Springer is different although I did watch one last week about the teenage runaways. It's a start, Dr. Phl is and it's helpful if men would only allow themselves the time to understand more about their relationships. Like this one on Dr. Phil yesterday:

The guy just recently married, still kept regular contact with 6 of his girl "friends". This naturally upset his wife but he couldn't understand why she was upset about it because he said "nothing's happin'". Yea right. That should not even be open for discussion. He doesn't understand though. Too bad for them both.

 

[Evo]

Don't you think men want women to act like women and not like them?

I guess it would depend on the man. My definition of being a woman doesn't include gluing bits of plastic onto the ends of my fingers. My definition of a man doesn't include him making grunting noises at the tv.

About the self-help books, might I ask you how do you suppose a man is to learn how to participate in a healthy relationship?

It certainly shouldn't be something he read out of a book. You shouldn't "have" to learn anything about relationships. Either you've met the right person for you, which means that person likes YOU and doesn't want you to be someone you're not, or you've met the WRONG person. Books on relationships are advice on how to force yourself into a relationship with the wrong person. Those books need to be burned and people should get a clue that if they have to make changes in order to be with someone IT'S WRONG. Maybe I should write a book about that.

 

[Astronuc]

Don't you think men want women to act like women and not like them? Same goes for guys acting like guys for women I think too. Most women I suspect hate with a passion their guys watching all that football! Ar you kidding me? A frickin' football widdow some of them are.

Seems most PFers sit at the PC browsing and posting on PF.

I would prefer reading a good book than sitting watching sports. And I'd prefer to play sports - I don't like being on the side line. I prefer to be outdoors, and gardening keeps me occupied in spring and summer.

About the self-help books, might I ask you how do you suppose a man is to learn how to participate in a healthy relationship? He has to learn somehow. It's ain't comin' naturally that's for sure. Most men fail misserably on that front: . . . .

Learn by doing. I think being married for almost 24 years is a pretty good qualification.

I learned from my parents and grandparents mostly. Plus I started young.

My best friend in kindergarden was a girl.

I had a girlfriend (who was my fairy-princess, and I was her knight-prince) in first grade. I still have pictures from the dance we went to. I was probably the only boy who was thrilled to be with his girl.

I moved a lot, so I had a series of girlfriends up until puberty, then I started looking for the 'right' woman.

 

[Evo]

The guy just recently married, still kept regular contact with 6 of his girl "friends". This naturally upset his wife but he couldn't understand why she was upset about it because he said "nothing's happin'". Yea right. That should not even be open for discussion. He doesn't understand though. Too bad for them both.

If these women really are just friends, then it's the woman's problem, not his. She needs to either accept them or leave him. If he's lying and they're fooling around, then she has a right to leave him. That would make him a lier and a cheater and those types don't ever really change, they just try harder to cover their tracks or live in constant turmoil over wanting to cheat and being afraid of getting caught. It doesn't make for a healthy relationship. You can't make an unhealthy, wrong relationship healthy or right, all you can do is try to temporarily cover up the behavior.

There is a LOT of money in deceiving people into believing that bad relationships are normal and that they can be made healthy with some "coaching". PUHLEASE.

 

[quantumcarl]

I think the problem is that people are going into relationships with unconscious expectations.

For instance, the classical question "Is this guy/girl the right one for me?". Its an entirely self-centered question. Personally, I would be asking "Am I the right guy/girl for him/her".

That and the couple should be able to talk about anything and everything at a certain level, i.e. nothing should be kept a secret. Relationships crumble under dishonesty, or even worse, infidelity, but that's another story.

About the religion thing, personally I think it is important to have the same religious beliefs shared by the couple. A pairing between an athiest and a truly devout Christian will not work at all.

Once a woman has blown 1 or 2 or 5 kids out her *special spot* the rest is herstory. Its up to the man to have the patience and tolerance and to be supportive in the next trying years of parenthood... or not. The woman's patience and tolerance is spent putting up with the infant, toddler, nursing and *doo doo boo boos* and post-partum depression etc... etc... etc...

A man really doesn't know how a woman will react to child bearing etc until it happens... or , as I mentioned 37 pages ago(yesterday!) he can see how the woman's mother delt with child rearing and see how bent out of shape or remarkably in shape the mother has kept herself. This information can be extrapolated on to how the woman he is interested in mating with will deal with birth/life/stuff in the future.

 

[Evo]

Once a woman has blown 1 or 2 or 5 kids out her *special spot* the rest is herstory.

You have a way of putting things so...delicately.

Its up to the man to have the patience and tolerance and to be supportive in the next trying years of parenthood... or not. The woman's patience and tolerance is spent putting up with the infant, toddler, nursing and *doo doo boo boos* and post-partum depression etc... etc... etc...

Having children has to be one of the greatest strains on a marriage, although it can also be greatly rewarding. If I was to suggest anything to a couple considering getting married and having kids is to first thoroughly understand the other person's parenting style and beliefs and walk away from the relationship if you insist on having children and hold completely opposing views. It will only lead to unhappiness for everyone. You cannot create a healthy environment for children (or your relationship) if your ways of handling children are in complete conflict.

A man really doesn't know how a woman will react to child bearing etc until it happens... or , as I mentioned 37 pages ago(yesterday!) he can see how the woman's mother delt with child rearing and see how bent out of shape or remarkably in shape the mother has kept herself. This information can be extrapolated on to how the woman he is interested in mating with will deal with birth/life/stuff in the future.

That's not a bad suggestion, except sometimes the acorn does fall far from the tree. You need to understand how your girlfriend reacts to and feels about her mother's parenting and personal styles. Your girlfriend might be the polar opposite of everything her mother is. My older daughter and I are extremely different, she's more like her father, although she is starting to lighten up.

 

[Astronuc]

Its up to the man to have the patience and tolerance and to be supportive in the next trying years of parenthood... or not. The woman's patience and tolerance is spent putting up with the infant, toddler, nursing and *doo doo boo boos* and post-partum depression etc... etc... etc...

Or not !? If a man can't deal with parenthood, then he better not get the woman pregnant, i.e. don't become a father.

Parenting is a shared responsibility.

I never felt like I was putting up with or tolerating my children. I love and adore my children. Being with my wife when she gave birth, and holding my daughter and son for the first time were perhaps the most profound experiences of my life.

 

[quantumcarl]

That's not a bad suggestion, except sometimes the acorn does fall far from the tree. You need to understand how your girlfriend reacts to and feels about her mother's parenting and personal styles. Your girlfriend might be the polar opposite of everything her mother is. My older daughter and I are extremely different, she's more like her father, although she is starting to lighten up.

You're right to notice how a daughter can initially differ from the style of her mother's interaction with life. However... there seems to be some sort of automatic kick-in of the roles and role models that were learned ... perhaps unconsciously (or unawares as the neuropsych people say) once strenuous situations begin to emerge in a person's life.

Even the act of marrage can trigger these hidden role models... and I've seen it myself. So, the rigors of birth and raising a child can double the chances of a woman (or man) reverting and leaning on old role models and behaviours they learned from their parents while growing up.

There there are all the variables like the 10s of thousands of people in Indonesia and Sri Lanka who have no parents or role models... other than the buzzards or the religiousities or the "savior complexed" people who prey, pray and actually try to help out.

I'm suprised to find out you have a daughter. Your photo looks like you're about 19 and your writing is fresh and thoughtful like a 24 year old's.
You are by all means being a good mother... by my calculations.

The disparity between parenting styles is amazing. You know what i a mean. Some see it as a struggle (ref: my thread "life a struggle?") and some see it as a great opportunity and challenge.

You also said something about deciding if your prospective mate has similar values when it comes to parenting. The proof is in the pudding. And that's unfortunate... because by the time you have children this is when you will be able to assess the mate's true values with regard to the topic.

Its like some guy going on about how well he skis and snowboards... he's the best loves the sport etc...

Then you get him on the mountain and he's a total whiner who hits every tree in sight and totally demands your attention all day.:zzz:

 

[Evo]

You're right to notice how a daughter can initially differ from the style of her mother's interaction with life. However... there seems to be some sort of automatic kick-in of the roles and role models that were learned ... perhaps unconsciously (or unawares as the neuropsych people say) once strenuous situations begin to emerge in a person's life.

I notice that I raised my kids just like my mom.

Even the act of marrage can trigger these hidden role models... and I've seen it myself. So, the rigors of birth and raising a child can double the chances of a woman (or man) reverting and leaning on old role models and behaviours they learned from their parents while growing up.

True, it's what you know and it would be like going on auto pilot.

I'm suprised to find out you have a daughter. Your photo looks like you're about 19 and your writing is fresh and thoughtful like a 24 year old's.

You wouldn't believe how old I am in that picture. (shut up Russ ) I stopped maturing when I was 25, so you're about right.

You are by all means being a good mother... by my calculations.

That's what my kids say. They're still young, they may turn on me one day.

The disparity between parenting styles is amazing. You know what i a mean. Some see it as a struggle (ref: my thread "life a struggle?") and some see it as a great opportunity and challenge.
You also said something about deciding if your prospective mate has similar values when it comes to parenting. The proof is in the pudding. And that's unfortunate... because by the time you have children this is when you will be able to assess the mate's true values with regard to the topic.
Its like some guy going on about how well he skis and snowboards... he's the best loves the sport etc...
Then you get him on the mountain and he's a total whiner who hits every tree in sight and totally demands your attention all day.:zzz:

Yep, my ex "had to have kids". My mother would babysit until I got home. My ex would get home before me, but wouldn't get close to the baby. One day my mom was sick, so when he got home from work, she left. I got home about 2 hours later and found him on the nursery room floor in a fetal position crying and repeating over and over 'I didn't mean to do it". I kept asking him what, but he was incoherent. Then I panicked, thinking he'd killed the baby. I rushed to the crib and checked and she was sleeping peacefully.

When I finally got him to snap out, he started screaming "DON'T YOU EVER DO THAT TO ME AGAIN", over and over. Later when he had calmed down he said the baby was crying, and he had yelled at her, which caused him to go into the fetal/crying thing, then the anger that he had been unexpectedly left alone with the baby for two hours was my fault and some sort of evil conspiracy against him.

Uhm, yeah, you don't know how people will cope with children.

 

[BobG]

Dude, that's wrong on so many levels. Yes I watch Dr. Phil. Lots. But I like that sort of stuff. Springer is different although I did watch one last week about the teenage runaways. It's a start, Dr. Phl is and it's helpful if men would only allow themselves the time to understand more about their relationships. Like this one on Dr. Phil yesterday:

Don't you worry about beer cans falling on your head?

 

[BobG]

Once a woman has blown 1 or 2 or 5 kids out her *special spot* the rest is herstory. Its up to the man to have the patience and tolerance and to be supportive in the next trying years of parenthood... or not. The woman's patience and tolerance is spent putting up with the infant, toddler, nursing and *doo doo boo boos* and post-partum depression etc... etc... etc...
A man really doesn't know how a woman will react to child bearing etc until it happens... or , as I mentioned 37 pages ago(yesterday!) he can see how the woman's mother delt with child rearing and see how bent out of shape or remarkably in shape the mother has kept herself. This information can be extrapolated on to how the woman he is interested in mating with will deal with birth/life/stuff in the future.

What makes you think the man's biggest problem will be watching his wife raise the kids?

I used to feel like I was coaching about 10,000 soccer teams (never volunteer - once they've found a sucker, they never let up).

The talk about religious differences reminded me of our family. My wife's Catholic. I'm not. I'm the one that usually took the kids to church. (That sounds unfair, but, actually, I just find it very relaxing and the sermons always provoke a lot of thought. If it wasn't for the 'details', I'd probably join.)

Our kids were bottle fed, so I was even the one who had to get up for all of those middle of the night feedings. Again, that's actually something I always found very relaxing. I had our first sleeping all night after just two weeks - it got a little longer for each one as you began to realize just how short the first few weeks are. Eventually it evolved to "they'll sleep all night long when the time it takes to wake me up exceeds the amount of time and effort they're willing to put into crying" (around 6 weeks).

 

[Moonbear]

New issues keep getting brought up like crazy in this thread! I can barely keep up!

Okay, on being like your parents, not always a good rule of thumb. My sister is a bit like our aunt in her personality and temperament in terms of not thinking things through or planning ahead, making frivolous purchases, going for the whole get your hair and nails done thing, and flying off the handle for fairly minor things. I don't know who I take after...my father a bit, one of my grandmothers a bit, and probably a healthy dose of both grandfathers. As my father and one set of grandparents has already passed away, you're not going to learn much from observing them about what I'm like. My mom and I tend to be polar opposites. She's someone who revels in gossip while swearing up and down she can't stand gossip, she cannot keep a secret for her life (if I want to quickly and efficiently share news with the entire family, I just have to tell my mom), and she gets ridiculously worked up over really minor things...everything is stressful if you take her word on it. My step-dad and I have a running joke when she starts going off and blowing up some insignificant issue...he gives me a look of exasperation and says, "She's your mom." I reply with, "It's not my fault. I was born with her; you actually chose her, and I tried warning you."

Of course, there were some things my mom did right in raising me, obviously , but a lot of things that I turned out okay in spite of. I do have pretty strong opinions about how children should be raised (is there anything I don't have strong opinions about?), so, yeah, finding someone with compatible views on that is important to me. Everyone will bring their own views and approaches to child-rearing, and it doesn't hurt to have alternative approaches if one way doesn't work, as long as they aren't completely incompatible.

As for knowing how someone will cope with children, that's where observation can help. When you attend family functions or other gatherings where children are present, does the person you're dating avoid the children, complain about all the screaming, look like someone just handed him nuclear waste if they ask him to hold a baby, start gagging if the diaper is dirty, etc.? If so, he's probably not going to be a lot of help with a baby, or is going to need a lot of coaching before he's comfortable with it. On the other hand, if he's just awkward when handed a baby, but tries cooing at it, or reads stories to the children, or just doesn't shun any room with children in it, he'll probably be okay. And some people are just naturals with babies...or maybe they just started out being around babies a lot when they were young...maybe in a large family with lots of siblings, or younger cousins, or their mom babysat, so they already know how to put a diaper on right-side-up, and can get a wriggling baby into a onesie...or they actually know what a onesie is.

Me, I love infants and older children, but don't know what to do with a 2-year old...that's when they're at that stage where they're fully mobile, have definite opinions of what they want and don't want, but lack the verbal skills to tell you that. That's also the age where they want to play the same game for hours and hours and hours and hours, until any sane adult is going to crack if the kid doesn't take a nap really soon...and of course it's the age when they don't want to take naps even if they really need one. But, all the good daddies I've seen seem to do really well with children at that age, so that'll probably work out fine.

On Dr. Phil and self-help books. I think Evo said it already, if you have to learn it from the book, you've got far too many problems for me to want to deal with. Developing relationship skills is something you should learn your entire life, through your social interactions with others, including parents, siblings, classmates, teachers, other friends and relatives, eventually co-workers, and from observing the relationships around you that work and don't work, as well as through dating. It's rare for someone to marry the first person they start dating. Dating is also practicing being in relationships. It helps you find what you like and don't like about potential partners, as well as gives you opportunities to learn from your blunders for when you meet the next person.

As for that example given above of the guy with 6 female friends, I agree with Evo, it's the wife's problem. She's obviously insecure about the relationship and jealous. Her husband shouldn't have to give up his friends to be married to her, that's just nuts. If she has a legitimate reason to suspect infidelity, then she should just dump his sorry butt, not sit around moping because he has female friends. He should probably just leave her, because she's too psycho to have a normal relationship if she suspects he's being unfaithful with any woman he's friends with.

 

[Moonbear]

I'm afraid you're one out of 200 or so that would rather do that. Don't you think men want women to act like women and not like them?

Are you kidding? I dislike sports, but I really would rather sit and watch a game and drink beer (the more beer you drink, the easier it is to watch the game, by the way) than sit around having some twit poke at my cuticles with a stick or gas me with hairspray. I've never had anyone question whether I act like a woman, I just don't need to cover myself in paint to show it. It's interesting when I hear from my married male friends and they tell me what movie they went to see or rented on the weekend or some such thing, and follow it with "not my choice, obviously." I end up wondering if they ever get to see a movie they would choose or like. Somehow, it seems to me it would be a bonus to meet someone with shared tastes in things like that so you could enjoy being with your spouse AND enjoy the movie too, not choose one or the other (one guy I know ends up going to the movies alone to see what he enjoys because he wife won't join him, even though he goes along to see the "chick flicks" she likes). I don't even attempt to understand anymore. As far as I can tell, the only reason they stay married is they're both from families that are too strongly Catholic to get a divorce without being considered an embarrassment to the family.

 

[Gale]

i just have to say that compared to you guys, I'm some weird gal. I love manicures and especially pedicures! the fake nails are too much, (i got them once and cut them right away so i could play guitar...) but its fun getting all pretty and dolled up! course i love football, so i never mind watching the games, but usually i watch on the little tv in the kitchen while making snacks and stuff, but i like to cook, so that's cool too...

 

[honestrosewater]

you know, guys are thinking along the same lines..

Guys think?

Yeah, I haven't read the rest yet. I just wanted to say that I'm better. I didn't actually change or figure anything out. I was just able to stop worrying so much about other people's expectations. Well, so I guess other than that, I didn't change or figure anything out. Heh. Anywho, I think everyone should try it if they haven't already. I don't mean not worrying about people's expectations and such to the point of being inconsiderate; I just mean not letting yourself feel imprisoned by them. Ah, I don't even know how I got in, but getting out is so exhilarating! I'm finally back to being myself again. (For better or for worse... )
Okay, so I have to say this too. I love being alone. And I love good people. Good people being happy literally makes me happy. And when I can make good people happy, it makes me even happier. And when other good people and I have our, whatever, circumstances and characteristics all aligned or whatever in such a way that allows us to spend time together doing things that make us happy and making each other happy, it makes me, well, even happier still. It's so great. Everyone should try it. Okay, I think I'm done now. Heh.

So what's really wrong with men? For starters, I think it might be being shoved into a category like that...

 

[BobG]

So what's really wrong with men?

Television.

If you didn't have television, you wouldn't have talk shows with Oprah Winfrey or Dr. Phil and women wouldn't even think to ask what's wrong with men. That would also mean men couldn't spend all weekend watching football on TV. You also wouldn't have beer commercials.

 

[fargoth]

Television.
If you didn't have television, you wouldn't have talk shows with Oprah Winfrey or Dr. Phil and women wouldn't even think to ask what's wrong with men. That would also mean men couldn't spend all weekend watching football on TV. You also wouldn't have beer commercials.

well said, i too think TV should be blamed.

 

[honestrosewater]

Television.
If you didn't have television, you wouldn't have talk shows with Oprah Winfrey or Dr. Phil and women wouldn't even think to ask what's wrong with men. That would also mean men couldn't spend all weekend watching football on TV. You also wouldn't have beer commercials.

What?! I'm a man?!? Wow, that explains a lot.

Or not...

 

[BobG]

What?! I'm a man?!? Wow, that explains a lot.

Or not...

I didn't say "you're a man". I said "television". They don't even sound the same.

It just goes to show you - it's impossible to communicate with women.

 

[Moonbear]

Television.
If you didn't have television, you wouldn't have talk shows with Oprah Winfrey or Dr. Phil and women wouldn't even think to ask what's wrong with men. That would also mean men couldn't spend all weekend watching football on TV. You also wouldn't have beer commercials.

Wow, that really seems to sum it all up! Televisions must be banned!

 

[honestrosewater]

Wow, that really seems to sum it all up! Televisions must be banned!

You two work for a radio company, don't you?

Oh, speaking of beer commercials, you know those Malibu Rum commercials with the Caribbean people? Haha, I love those. They're hilarious. I'll see if I can find them somewhere.
Yeah, they're at their website (to enter, you must be legal drinking age, or at least tell them you are ). Check 'em out. Funny stuff. http://www.malibu-rum.com/

Oh, man, it's total gridlock!

I want that fish!

I just want to buy a melon.

Is your mother proud of you?

 

[Orefa]

Ah, so there is nothing actually wrong with men. The problem is that women were watching television instead of reading the http://orefa.com/misc/men_rules.html" .

 

[franznietzsche]

I find this thread insulting and degrading. I just wanted you to know that.

 

[Orefa]

I find this thread insulting and degrading. I just wanted you to know that.

...and you read it all the way to page nine!

I think most of it is pretty funny.

 

[franznietzsche]

...and you read it all the way to page nine!
I think most of it is pretty funny.

no, i read the first page, and the last page.

 

[Lewis]

http://www.turnoffyourtv.com/

Good website.

 

[honestrosewater]

Yeah, but franznietzsche forgot to mention that being insulted and degraded turns him on. (Freak.)

 

[Pengwuino]

Has anyone found me a young penguinish girl yet?

 

[honestrosewater]

Has anyone found me a young penguinish girl yet?

Hey, my restraining order expires this weekend.

(If that line works, I am a god.)

 

[Pengwuino]

Hey, my restraining order expires this weekend.
(If that line works, I am a god.)

Mine expired last friday :!) :!) :!) :!)

 

[The_Professional]

Guys think?

and your point is?

 

[Astronuc]

. . . (the more beer you drink, the easier it is to watch the game, by the way) . . . .

I thought you were going to say that the more beer, the better the guy looks.

 

[Moonbear]

I thought you were going to say that the more beer, the better the guy looks.

Well, that too, but I'd have to already think he was pretty good looking if he got me to agree to watch a game with him.

 

[Astronuc]

. . . then the anger that he had been unexpectedly left alone with the baby for two hours . . .

I read this, and I still find it unbelievable! And it breaks my heart.

My daughter was born during the last few months of grad school, so I adjusted my schedule around my wife and daughter. My wife expressed breast milk so that I could give my daughter (and 3 years later with my son) breast milk while she either went to work (during the week) or went shopping on the weekends.

When my daughter experienced jaundice during the second week after birth, we had to keep her under a bili-light. Someone had to watch her constantly. During the day, my wife was home and watched over her. I pulled all-nighters (grading homework and tests) to watch over her at night, and then went to school during the day. I slept for a few hours in the evening between the time I got home and the time my wife went to bed.

 

[quantumcarl]

What makes you think the man's biggest problem will be watching his wife raise the kids?

What makes you think that's my concern. I mentioned tolerance and patience and people take these words to hold a negative connotation.

I mean tolerance as in the ability to cope with no sleep, no hangin wit da homeboys... escaping to work to pay for the 70 diapers a week that you get to change maybe 30 of if you and your wife are lucky.

There's the sweet potatos, the oatmeal being spat all over you and the worries that the kid isn't eating...or is eating too much... has swallowed a bottle cap or will never learn to walk or talk. These are the details men are only able to catch romantic little glimpses of... while the wife/lover/cheerleader/captured french princess is now a full time mother... totally utilitarian to the offspring. Not much else.

The new mother loses perspective, in many cases, and doesn't see the romance in child bearing after awhile... and, if you thought she screamed in delivery, wait til you arrive late with the diaper's, dinner and the relief you represent to her as the "other half" of the parenting team.

Meanwhile, is the man readjusting his bowels after birth? Is his stomache slowly claiming back a former glory after being stretched to the size of a beach ball? No. Are his hormones so out of whack they show up on radar? No.

The man is in a position where he can choose to remain calm, no matter what little **** is going on or how he feels about losing some time with the homies or getting poopy on his shirt. He holds the advantage here and has a responsibilty to maintain a level atmosphere in the home for his child and his spouse.

The day my 11 month-old took a dump that squished out of the diaper and down my leg (I didn't feel it because it was the same temp. as me) into my shoe... is the day I realized fatherhood was not about reacting... its about supporting and appreciating what all this is teaching you about yourself... and life in general.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

What makes you think that's my concern. I mentioned tolerance and patience and people take these words to hold a negative connotation.
I mean tolerance as in the ability to cope with no sleep, no hangin wit da homeboys... escaping to work to pay for the 70 diapers a week that you get to change maybe 30 of if you and your wife are lucky.
There's the sweet potatos, the oatmeal being spat all over you and the worries that the kid isn't eating...or is eating too much... has swallowed a bottle cap or will never learn to walk or talk. These are the details men are only able to catch romantic little glimpses of... while the wife/lover/cheerleader/captured french princess is now a full time mother... totally utilitarian to the offspring. Not much else.
The new mother loses perspective, in many cases, and doesn't see the romance in child bearing after awhile... and, if you thought she screamed in delivery, wait til you arrive late with the diaper's, dinner and the relief you represent to her as the "other half" of the parenting team.
Meanwhile, is the man readjusting his bowels after birth? Is his stomache slowly claiming back a former glory after being stretched to the size of a beach ball? No. Are his hormones so out of whack they show up on radar? No.
The man is in a position where he can choose to remain calm, no matter what little **** is going on or how he feels about losing some time with the homies or getting poopy on his shirt. He holds the advantage here and has a responsibilty to maintain a level atmosphere in the home for his child and his spouse.
The day my 11 month-old took a dump that squished out of the diaper and down my leg (I didn't feel it because it was the same temp. as me) into my shoe... is the day I realized fatherhood was not about reacting... its about supporting and appreciating what all this is teaching you about yourself... and life in general.

The woman is taking care of a new born infant and the husband (if he's worth his weight) is taking care of both a new born infant and a recovering wife.

 

[loseyourname]

Of course I don't think the same thing is wrong with all of them. That's just my way of saying that I'm sad and frustrated because I'd like to not be alone for the rest of my life, but I don't know what to do about it.

(Men and women,) What would you expect your spouse-type partner person to give up in order to have a happy relationship with you?

If you're seriously looking to get involved with someone, you might want to start by giving up that thing about not being in a relationship for 8 years or whatever it was. Loneliness might be expected when you purposely isolate yourself.

 

[Mk]

Whoa, when did loseryourname become a mentor?? Awesome.

 

[honestrosewater]

If you're seriously looking to get involved with someone, you might want to start by giving up that thing about not being in a relationship for 8 years or whatever it was. Loneliness might be expected when you purposely isolate yourself.

Done. Though I'm not looking to get involved with anyone in particular.

I started a reply to earlier comments, but I'm not in a condition to finish it.

 

[honestrosewater]

Are you letting it be known that you're looking? (how would one go about doing that anyways -- I mean to let it be known you're looking, as opposed to being interested in anyone in particular -- I mean for people who don't go to bars)

I actually haven't been "looking". I was just looking ahead. Right now, I don't want any kind of relationship other than a friendship. Or rather, I already classify all (voluntary) relationships as friendships, as based on (or having as their goal) utility, pleasure, or character. (If anyone recognizes Aristotle in any of this, it's not a coincidence; I do tend to agree with and turn to him more than I agree with and turn to others, and if you know him, you probably know something about me too.) The "best" type is based on character, where you recognize the other as a good person and want to make them happy and help them develop as a person for their own good, and so on... it's pretty predictable stuff, I think. I think sex is what causes most of the problems. Perhaps it's that people, in general or perhaps only in my experience, don't question assumptions about sex enough. That I avoided even mentioning anything much about sex until now just futher convinces me of that, since I'm normally pretty much completely open and unabashed when it comes to anything regarding sex -- and I love questioning implicit assumptions. I don't know. Maybe I shouldn't talk about it. Does it make people uncomfortable? Does anyone think it's inappropriate to discuss in public? Why?

Anywho, I don't like or go to bars either. I guess narrowing things down would help... would the person you might want a relationship with have any special properties? If so, would those properties make them tend to frequent certain places? If so, go to those places and get the message out. I don't know though... makes sense to me, but I don't really have any experience there yet. Men (or boys, really) were always just around before.

I must admit that after this thread, you suddenly seem cute. I had simply never thought anything about it before. I imagine "real-life" effects would be similar.

Yeah, maybe. I don't know if I fit anyone's expectations. I think you're cute too though. Why do I seem cute? Anything in particular that you're aware of?

Um, that wasn't all aimed at you either. Hm. I guess I'm not very good at explaining or talking about this stuff yet. Um, yeah. I don't know anything.

 

[Mk]

I'm cute. You know it.

Penguino is cute. Ha, I crack myself up.

 

[Astronuc]

I actually haven't been "looking". I was just looking ahead. Right now, I don't want any kind of relationship other than a friendship. Or rather, I already classify all (voluntary) relationships as friendships, as based on (or having as their goal) utility, pleasure, or character. (If anyone recognizes Aristotle in any of this, it's not a coincidence; I do tend to agree with and turn to him more than I agree with and turn to others, and if you know him, you probably know something about me too.) The "best" type is based on character, where you recognize the other as a good person and want to make them happy and help them develop as a person for their own good, and so on... it's pretty predictable stuff, I think. I think sex is what causes most of the problems. Perhaps it's that people, in general or perhaps only in my experience, don't question assumptions about sex enough. That I avoided even mentioning anything much about sex until now just futher convinces me of that, since I'm normally pretty much completely open and unabashed when it comes to anything regarding sex -- and I love questioning implicit assumptions. I don't know. Maybe I shouldn't talk about it. Does it make people uncomfortable? Does anyone think it's inappropriate to discuss in public? Why?

As for friendship. My wife and I started out as friends among a larger group of friends. Our forum was the house of mutual friends who were living together. We used to get together for dinners or parties on a Friday or during the weekend (I was living about 90 miles away). Various members of the group were musicians, so we often sat around listening to music. However, all folks were in university or had graduated, and the group would get involved in discussions, much like the ones seen throughout PF - GD, P&WA, and various matters on science.

My wife, at the time a divorcee who had returned to finish university, and I would get into some interesting discussions (I was studying nuclear engineering and she was anti-nuclear), and gradually she and I would separate from the group and just talk - for hours. I usually helped in the kitchen with cooking and then washing dishes and cleaning after dinner. So my wife would join me in the kitchen and we both worked together - and talk.

We started dating - and the communication continued. Three months after we started dating, I proposed and she accepted. Since I was still living 90 miles from where she was living, we could only see each other on weekends and holidays/school breaks, and we more or less lived together (as much we could) while we were engaged, and finishing school. We got married about two weeks after we graduated, and then we went to graduate school together.

There is usually a certain sensitivity when discussing initimacy in public. Sexual intimacy should not be a 'problem' IF the couple involved communicates. Communication is the key in any relationship. Lack of communication is probably the root cause of most problems in a relationship.

would the person you might want a relationship with have any special properties? If so, would those properties make them tend to frequent certain places? If so, go to those places and get the message out. I don't know though... makes sense to me, but I don't really have any experience there yet.

As for special properties - I needed a woman with whom I could share my thoughts and who would be my best friend. Obviously, we had to share certain goals and expectations, e.g. career and family. I guess I was very lucky and I found the right woman. Keep in mind, it has not been perfect. We have had ups and downs - but - we have stayed together and worked things through.

Men (or boys, really) were always just around before.

And they always will be.

I don't know if I fit anyone's expectations. Why do I seem cute? Anything in particular that you're aware of?

I think you probably do fit some men's expectations or hopes or dreams. HRW - your questions, comments and sense of humor are endearing.

If I was unmarried at this point in my life, I would probably being looking on PF for a woman (actually I know I would) based on the level of thoughtfulness and intelligence expressed by many women here (particluarly the sisters). My age would limit my selection.

Um, that wasn't all aimed at you either. Hm. I guess I'm not very good at explaining or talking about this stuff yet. Um, yeah. I don't know anything.

That's cute, and your postings indicate that you know many things.