What is the solution for finding F in terms of T and V without integrating?

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Homework Help Overview

The discussion revolves around expressing the Helmholtz free energy (F) as a function of temperature (T) and volume (V) without performing integrations. Participants are exploring the relationships between thermodynamic quantities, particularly focusing on the Helmholtz equation and Maxwell relations.

Discussion Character

  • Conceptual clarification, Mathematical reasoning, Problem interpretation

Approaches and Questions Raised

  • Participants are attempting to manipulate the Helmholtz free energy expression, questioning the validity of replacing entropy (S) terms and exploring the implications of using heat capacity. There are discussions about isolating S and substituting it into other equations, as well as concerns about the assumptions made during integration.

Discussion Status

The conversation is ongoing, with participants providing insights and suggestions for alternative approaches. Some guidance has been offered regarding substituting expressions for S into the internal energy equation, but there remains a lack of consensus on how to fully eliminate S from the equations being discussed.

Contextual Notes

Participants are navigating constraints related to the problem's requirements, particularly the need to express F solely in terms of T and V without integrating, which adds complexity to their reasoning and attempts.

wololo
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Homework Statement



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Homework Equations


Maxwell relations

The Attempt at a Solution


I have an attempt at a solution, but I am not sure if I can replace the integral of dT in the helmholtz equation by the T I found using the internal energy. Does this make sense? Thanks

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The problem statement asks you to express F as a function only of T and V. This is not the form of your final answer.

Chet
 
I still haven't figured out how to get rid of the entropy terms in the expression of Helmholtz free energy. Can I simply replace the S in the equation I found by heat capacity times temperature? (given dS=cdT). I don't know how to proceed after, any advice is appreciated. Am I on the correct path or did I start solving the problem wrong from the very beginning? Thanks!
 
In your integrations you treated S as constant which is not a valid assumption.

You have an expression for T in terms of S and V. Try using that along with the definition of F in tems of U, S, and T.
 
If I rewrite the expression for T and isolate S i get S=(27T^3V)/(64A). I can then replace the integral of -SdT to find F by the integral of -(27T^3V)/(64A)dT which equals -(27T^4V)/(256A).
It seems to make sense since I get rid of the S terms in the first integral. However I don't see how I can get rid of the S term in the expression of pressure P, so I can't integrate PdV.

I also considered using the definition F=U-TS but there again I get stuck with the S term in the expression of U. And if I use dF=dU-TdS-SdT and integrate I still have to do something with dU. I know I am probably missing some simple relation but I really can't think of anything that would rid me of S...
 
wololo said:
If I rewrite the expression for T and isolate S i get S=(27T^3V)/(64A). I can then replace the integral of -SdT to find F by the integral of -(27T^3V)/(64A)dT which equals -(27T^4V)/(256A).
It seems to make sense since I get rid of the S terms in the first integral. However I don't see how I can get rid of the S term in the expression of pressure P, so I can't integrate PdV.

I also considered using the definition F=U-TS but there again I get stuck with the S term in the expression of U. And if I use dF=dU-TdS-SdT and integrate I still have to do something with dU. I know I am probably missing some simple relation but I really can't think of anything that would rid me of S...
Why are you integrating at all? You solved for S and got:
$$S=\frac{27}{64}\frac{VT^3}{A^3}$$
Why don't you just substitute that into the equation for U to get the internal energy in terms of T and V? Then why don't you just multiply S by T to get TS in terms of T and V? Then, F = U - TS.

Chet
 
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