Why is T+f=Ma in Cylinder Roll Without Gliding?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the equation T + f = Ma in the context of a cylinder rolling without gliding. Participants explore the relationships between tension, friction, and acceleration in this scenario, examining the application of forces and torques.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions whether the equation should be T - f = Ma instead of T + f = Ma, arguing that tension and friction are opposite forces.
  • Another participant clarifies that tension and friction are not opposite; friction acts to prevent slipping and thus acts in the same direction as tension in this context.
  • It is noted that while the forces act in the same direction, their torques are opposite due to their positions relative to the axis of rotation.
  • A later reply points out that equation (3) requires angular acceleration rather than linear acceleration, suggesting a potential oversight in the initial discussion.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express disagreement regarding the directionality of the forces in equation (2), with some asserting they act in the same direction while others initially perceived them as oppositional. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the implications of this disagreement on the overall understanding of the equations.

Contextual Notes

There is a potential limitation in the understanding of how forces and torques interact in this scenario, particularly regarding the definitions and roles of tension and friction in the context of rolling motion.

Exath
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So I'm looking at a problem that involves a situation that looks like this
upload_2018-8-31_0-20-14.png

the cylinder rolls without gliding.
And there are these following equations that apply to it
(1) mg - T = ma (for the block hanging vertically)
(2) T + f = Ma (for the cylinder f = friction force, T = String force)
(3) Tr - fr = Ia (I = inertia, r = radius)

I'm only concerned about equation (2) where it's T + f = Ma, shouldn't it be T - f = Ma? Because the tension from the string and friction force are opposite to each other. It is apparently acknowledged that they are opposite in equation (3) where the torques are opposite, but why not in equation (2)?
 

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Exath said:
I'm only concerned about equation (2) where it's T + f = Ma, shouldn't it be T - f = Ma? Because the tension from the string and friction force are opposite to each other.
Careful! The tension and friction forced are not opposite. The friction opposes slipping between surfaces, thus it acts to the right to prevent slipping of the cylinder on the table.

Exath said:
It is apparently acknowledged that they are opposite in equation (3) where the torques are opposite, but why not in equation (2)?
Since one force is above the axis and the other below, their torques are opposite. But the forces themselves act in the same direction.
 
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Doc Al said:
Since one force is above the axis and the other below, their torques are opposite. But the forces themselves act in the same direction.

Ah, that's what i was looking for, i was looking at the forces the same way i was looking at torques, that's obviously wrong lol
 
Incidentally in (3) you need angular acceleration not linear acceleration.
 

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