Japan Earthquake: Nuclear Plants at Fukushima Daiichi

[zapperzero]

Shot from the helicopter over Unit 3.

Shot when, please?

 

[Rive]

I have plotted all 13 temperature variables of 032_1F3_05110600.pdf

Increased water flow to reacter 3 has no effect, even though the water level has risen to 1800mm below fuel top.

If there are melted (or just blocked) areas within the RPV then it's possible that some areas 'overreacts' the cooling, while other areas does not reacts or reacts only with delay.

Even fluctuations or sudden changes are possible as the blocked flow paths changes or the crust breaks up locally.

It's enough for me if the trend turns downward.

 

[razzz]

Shot when, please?

Uploaded March 24.

 

[Concrn&Curius]

Apologies if this has already been sorted out, but what is the accepted status of the fuel in unit 4 SFP? I noticed that in the shorter video it appears there are 1) clearly empty spaces in the bins 2) undamaged fuel, and 3) mirky looking areas where assemblies could have been? In the longer video that was "damage free" you can really only distinctly see the tops (where the crane grabs them) in the near assemblies. The other end of the pool is difficult to tell. If you pause the shorter video around 0:02, you can see what looks like darker plumes above the mirky areas rising in the water? When the camera goes out of focus, it is pretty hard to see the distinctions.

 

[|Fred]

Uploaded March 24.

it was taken on the 15th march

 

[rmattila]

If you mean BWR plants under normal operation, they do have recombiners in the condenser vacuum/off gas system in order to recombine the hydrogen and oxygen back to water prior to transferring the gases to the actual off-gas treatment.

Haa, interesting. Do you have an indication of their capacity? By design how much would they process (depending on plant power I guess)?

The design capacity lies somewhere around 10-20 kg/h hydrogen depending on the plant, the required capacity during normal operation being about half of that.

 

[elektrownik]

And what is that ?! Leak to sea from reactor 3 pit ?? It was posted today on tepco site:
[URL]http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/news/110311/images/110511_1.jpg[/URL]

 

[TCups]

Sure - Picture number 1 shows it very clearly - I've desaturated everything but the hole. Look at how the crosstie beams are bent in a perfect arc


Your markup shows the reactor core offset somewhat.

I've also highlighted your picture from above(attachment #2) - much harder to see the deformed beams and the "hole" but it is there, and when I see this view, the hole is not very far offset from where you show the reactor core.

Can you see what I'm talking about now?

@ihatelies:

http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/cep/39/4/images/thumb_cep_39_4_491_fig4a.jpg

Google "Cognitive Contours" and do a bit of reading, just for fun. See also: cognitive contrast and cognitive mental sets. Your visual physiology is more complex than you know. Your brain sees what it expects to see.

PS: I make my living looking at images and interpreting them.

 

[elektrownik]

Yes, another radioactive leak to sea: http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/press/corp-com/release/11051108-e.html
http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/press/corp-com/release/betu11_e/images/110511e9.pdf

 

[jlduh]

And what is that ?! Leak to sea from reactor 3 pit ?? It was posted today on tepco site:
[URL]http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/news/110311/images/110511_1.jpg

[/URL]

The big problem is that outside of the containment vessel (which is designed to contain everything radioactive of course), such a plant is not designed to contain so much contaminated water... So because of the leakages through containment vessels, water will then follow many possible paths, either cracks but it is not even necessary: hundreds of cables routes here and there will do the job! I've had to deal in my environmental expertises with several cases with that kind of situation (much smaller and not nuclear, but with chemicals), after a big fire for example, and i can tell you that containing water from something like a big plant that is not designed from scratch to contain water is a pain in what you prefer. There are so many unexpected paths and holes, water goes everywhere (you probably noticed that in your house unfortunately!)

Containing contaminated water in such a messy plant (and the volume is going to increase even much more with typoon rains washing everything and adding big volumes!) is almost an impossible task because it will leak towards the sea and towards the ground water, and even if they can stop some of it, it will overflow or take many other paths...

The final containment vessel will be... the ocean.

 

[jlduh]

"TEPCO slipping behind schedule to contain accident"

http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/11_04.html

The title is almost laughable... as if there was a clear schedule to stabilize and contain this mess...
That's the very thuth!

Let's face it. We've spent here on the forum more than TWO MONTHS today discussing, analysing the infos given, trying to understand what happened and what could still happen, building theories and cutting pixels in half and more (including me!) BUT in 2 months I didn't see a credible plan from any nuclear company (including Tepco) or any nuclear agencies in the world explaining how this desaster COULD be contained. And i have more and more the impression that any schedule given will be something to create hope and give the impression that things out of any control are or "will be soon" in control. A cloud of steam to hide the core of the situation.

Maybe i missed some anticipation technical plans but really i would like to see them summarized there on this forum now after the first two months (if they ever exist). How long will we continue to lurk for tidbits of infos just being moved by day by day events? When will a global plan be discussed?

Ok Tepco has some plan to try to restore a backup closed loop cooling system reusing nitrogen pipes (any drawing of them?) on reactor N°1 which has still some containement but what else?

N°2?

N°3?

Ok I'm not in their shoes, but I'm just (like this article above) considering this simple fact: do they know what to do on a mid term/long term or NOT? My personal feeling is that they have no plan (except a draft for N°1, with lots of uncertainties) because THERE IS NO PLAN IN SUCH A SITUATION, because the nuke industry never imagined to have to handle such a situation...

So what will they do? Just keep flooding them for years (maybe 3 or 4 based on what is required for active cooling of spent fuel?)? During this time just pray for not having a new quake, a new tsunami (ohhh they are going to build a new wall in emergency, I forgot) , and not too bad typhoons. Man, let's imagine 3 seasons of typhoons washing these highly contaminated ruins and spraying radioactive materials where the winds want to bring them around... not a very sexy scenario!

And then, if we assume that after a so long time, there hasn't been any bad event like a new explosion of some kind or a fall of some fuel content of the attic SFP's, will come the time for long term containment and/or decontamination of the complete site... Where are those guys with gigantic views and nice drawings when the subject is to present the launch of some future big project for making big money? Why are they so quiet? Don't they have any credible plan? Like a nice 1 kms (or maybe even bigger) long sarcophagus, for 4 reactors and turbine buildings, that will make the Tchernobyl one a miniaturized one (the one that should be constructed to replace the old one but is still not really started, due to... lack of money and technical difficulties!)... Or whatever other plan. But i hear nothing. Just silence.

Undoubtedly, if only considering the releases in the 2 first months, and thanks to some incredible luck when you consider the details of what happened with the SFPs, this Fukushima accident could be viewed as much less severe than Tchenobyl where a bunch of radioactive material has been thrown away in the air in the first weeks. But let's now consider the time factor, and also the size factor (4 reactors plus spent fuels, so a total of 10 cores to manage!) and you will get a very different view at the "end of the story", which will be in a very long time (and this thread will die before it for sure!).

From this standpoint, no doubt that Fukushima is going to replace Tchernobyl in the minds of humanity.

They are going to present where they are according to their "restoration plan" the 17th of May...

But a part of the unplanned things is that they apologize for the second time for being out of their planned timings... I fear they will have soon their backs soaring if they have to apologize each and every time the so called plan is delayed, considering the current situation...

"TEPCO apologizes again 2 months after accident"

http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/11_19.html

 

[Samy24]

Yes, another radioactive leak to sea: http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/press/corp-com/release/11051108-e.html
http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/press/corp-com/release/betu11_e/images/110511e9.pdf

TEPCO increase the water flow to the reactor from 6 t/h to 9 t/h in response to the increasing temperature at unit 3. The water level will rise and you can be sure the water will "find" it's way.

 

[Astronuc]

To be more precise there is no double layered steel structure on the north and south end as there is no transversal beam adjacent to the wall. But there still is a single layered steel structure.

I' don't feel like going over every argument again but I've reup a better view of the roof been deformation, that also show you the secondary pool wall, the one adjacent to the reactor concrete slab with a crane on top , toping the reactor biological shield, the one toping the reactor core vessel lid..
[PLAIN]http://k.min.us/ikOZG2.jpg[/QUOTE] That's an interesting picture. It looks like steam is issuing through a crack around the frame of the hole, which I believe is the cask transfer shaft. That shaft should be on the west side of the spent fuel pool.

 

[ernal_student]

The following matter has been previously considerd in this thread, but it is perhaps worth mentioning because it has shown up in mainstream media now:
(found quoted in the blog at http://norikoiida.exblog.jp/13552179/ where other interesting information can be found, as well)

The evening edition of the Toukyou Shinbun (Tokyo Newspaper) from May 10 is quoted as follows:

Under the headline
"謎深まる４号機爆発　水素、原因じゃない？" ("Deepening mystery of the reactor 4 explosion - cause of explosion not hydrogen?")
the article considers that there is virtually no damage to/in the fuel storage pool next to reactor 4 and explains why hydrogen cannot have flown to reactor 4 from reactor 3 through underground pipes ("it is lighter than air"). Then it mentions
"石油類二六リットルとスプレー缶三十三本" ("33 spray cans containing 26 liters each of a petroleum product") = 858 liters total
as a possible source of explosive materal.

 

[|Fred]

That's an interesting picture. It looks like steam is issuing through a crack around the frame of the hole, which I believe is the cask transfer shaft. That shaft should be on the west side of the spent fuel pool.

No no , this picture is taken from the north looking south, this is not the spent fuel pool BUT the "utility" pool symmetrically opposed to the spent fuel pool

as I explained (but I'm to lazy to find my post) the white REMOVABLE wall that you see is similar to the one on this picture http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll264/BigBrocktoon/headlift.jpg
but the picture is taken from the pool not from the reactor area.

 

[ihatelies]

While I certainly can see what you are talking about, I am hesitant to consider it a round hole in the sense that a huge round object could've passed unhindered through it. There appears to be several remains of the higher lying roof structure elements in the way, which appear relatively unscathed by the general utter destruction in this area, as well as more specifically an assumed collision with a passing through large object.
[URL]http://www.gyldengrisgaard.dk/fuku_docs/20110324_down_3_epicenter.jpg[/URL]

That said, this 'hole' you are highlighting does seem to be closely the epicenter of the events that shook unit 3 so badly.

I didn't say anything passed unhindered through it.

Instead, I would believe quite a bit of hindrance on the way. Notice that all those other pieces of metal that seem to cross over the "hole". are broken off at one end and no longer connect the two roof trusses together anymore.

Whatever went through there may have gotten sliced up as it passed through. Then it would fall back down in pieces.

I think the most interesting area of the Reactor 3 wreckage is not the reactor space, not the spent fuel pool, but instead the north end of the building wreckage.

And no, I'm not talking about the "nut driver machine". I believe that actually is what the charred black object is. However just to the West of the nut driver is a bunch of stuff that it very interesting.

First there is a large pile of "rod like" items, then there is something buried deep in the wreckage. That item has been smoking with reddish smoke for weeks. Also, the entire north end of the building wreckage has disintigrated slowly over time. And finally - that is the area of the whole plant that has shown the highest radiation readings, and to top it all off, it is the first area they put a firehose on after the accident, and despite the fact they have purposely avoided photographing anything there, as of a couple weeks ago they were still pumping water on that part of the wreckage.

 

[TCups]

I think the most interesting area of the Reactor 3 wreckage is not the reactor space, not the spent fuel pool, but instead the north end of the building wreckage.

And no, I'm not talking about the "nut driver machine". I believe that actually is what the charred black object is. However just to the West of the nut driver is a bunch of stuff that it very interesting.

First there is a large pile of "rod like" items, then there is something buried deep in the wreckage. That item has been smoking with reddish smoke for weeks. Also, the entire north end of the building wreckage has disintigrated slowly over time. And finally - that is the area of the whole plant that has shown the highest radiation readings, and to top it all off, it is the first area they put a firehose on after the accident, and despite the fact they have purposely avoided photographing anything there, as of a couple weeks ago they were still pumping water on that part of the wreckage.

Please share the image(s) you reference. Thanks.

 

[|Fred]

this is a picture of the north end
http://i.min.us/inkjAa.jpg
Could you please point out what you believe are pile of ..well rod like = small tubes.
I don"t recall any mention of reddish Smoke, but could you refresh my memories.

For the rest of the statement I believe you are referring to the pictures and the following video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBeY7URe9q8
I would agree that one could wonder why in order to fill the Fuel Pool the truck is positioned there.

 

[ihatelies]

@ihatelies:

http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/cep/39/4/images/thumb_cep_39_4_491_fig4a.jpg

Google "Cognitive Contours" and do a bit of reading, just for fun. See also: cognitive contrast and cognitive mental sets. Your visual physiology is more complex than you know. Your brain sees what it expects to see.

PS: I make my living looking at images and interpreting them.

I don't doubt that some people have a lot of trouble recognizing things in that wreckage. As I said, please show me where I'm wrong - sorry if I cannot accept a general concept that I might have gotten tricked by my brain as proof that this doesn't exist.

I used to make my living making 2D drawings on a drafting board for many years, and then I designed on a Cad station. I'm pretty good at interpreting things in 3D - if you point out where I'm incorrect, I will have no trouble seeing it.

The screen grabs of the helicopter flyover clearly show the opening I'm talking about. BTW that's been the best piece of visual evidence that has been released so far, because it wasn't cropped and edited as much as most of what we see.

 

[ihatelies]

this is a picture of the north end
http://i.min.us/inkjAa.jpg
Could you please point out what you believe are pile of ..well rod like = small tubes.
I don"t recall any mention of reddish Smoke, but could you refresh my memories.

For the rest of the statement I believe you are referring to the pictures and the following video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBeY7URe9q8
I would agree that one could wonder why in order to fill the Fuel Pool the truck is positioned there.

The stuff I'm going to point out is in the picture you show, but not very visible. I'll show a different angle.

Attachment 1 shows the wreckage of #3 - As I recall it is a screen grab from the video where they were driving a reporter around the wreckage just a few weeks ago - so it's taken from a vehicle. You can clearly see the "nut driver" wreckage. If you download it and zoom in, you can also see the red smoke I'm talking about. Also, of course you can see a firehose on this part of the wreckage - this is several weeks after the explosion.

Attachment #2 is a slightly different view of the same scene. Some of the items in the wreckage are a little clearer.

Attachment #3 I've zoomed and annotated #2. I've pointed out the areas of red smoke - which you can't really see with the annotation, but if you switch back to the clean view, you will now be able to see. I've also pointed out the jumble of long, thin straight rods. I tend to think they are not fuel rods, at this point, but maybe instead control rods - but the implications are the same.

I've also pointed out an item which has some round openings that are large diameter pipes that have been ripped out from somewhere. I label this as possibly the RPV - and yeah, that's a real jump. However, I followed some of the falling wreckage in the explosion to exactly this spot, and additionally if you look at drawings of the base of the Mark IV RPV, you see an object that looks ominously like this thing that is sitting there, upside down, in the wreckage.

 

[AntonL]

That's an interesting picture. It looks like steam is issuing through a crack around the frame of the hole, which I believe is the cask transfer shaft. That shaft should be on the west side of the spent fuel pool.

On March 28^th https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=3214616&postcount=1685"

I think both of you stand to be corrected
could it be the gate to the equipment pool, we are looking south
[PLAIN]http://k.min.us/ikOZEo.jpg

 

[Rive]

... As I recall it is a screen grab from the video where they were driving a reporter around the wreckage just a few weeks ago...

Nope, the pictures are from the http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpGdkRvDMAQ&hd=1" vid, but with saturation and colour balance sent ballistic (the original video is also a terribly calibrated one). That's why you see 'red smoke'. Another excellent example for the dangers of careless modification of pictures.

The 'RPV wreckage' is a broken piece of a concrete beam, and the containment cap lifter, but there are a few meters between them.

The rod jumble... Well, that's a rod jumble, it's visible on other vids too, from the helicopter flyovers. But the most typical pieces of a fuel assembly (endings and spaceholders) could not be identified on/around them, so yet no positive identification as fuel rods.

 

[|Fred]

I understand well I do not see anything that could remotely be qualified as redish smoke that has been there for weeks.. The thing you are referring to has been discussed very early on this thread, some used to call it the mysterious red glowing corium object that came with the Unit 3 pot up theory.
As far as I'm concerned, there is no new evidence suggesting this could be reconsidered

Now regarding the hole on the south side, as I said, it seems rather unlikely that it could have been done by something going upward

I think both of you stand to be corrected could it be the gate to the equipment pool, we are looking south

Not far bellow Tcup's post you should have found mine convincing him it was the equipment pool wall (it's a removable wall, not a gate ) and the 2 dark rectangular spot you see on the top of the wall are the female plug for the Main crane handling devise allowing to remove this wall when needed..

Guys.. are we rediscovering the wheel? rediscovering all the evidences we discovered one month ago ?

 

[rowmag]

this is a picture of the north end
http://i.min.us/inkjAa.jpg
Could you please point out what you believe are pile of ..well rod like = small tubes.
I don"t recall any mention of reddish Smoke, but could you refresh my memories.

For the rest of the statement I believe you are referring to the pictures and the following video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBeY7URe9q8
I would agree that one could wonder why in order to fill the Fuel Pool the truck is positioned there.

I seem to recall that was as close as they could get at the time, due to high radiation levels around Units 3 and 4.

 

[MadderDoc]

I didn't say anything passed unhindered through it.
Instead, I would believe quite a bit of hindrance on the way. Notice that all those other pieces of metal that seem to cross over the "hole". are broken off at one end and no longer connect the two roof trusses together anymore.

I may not have expressed myself clearly. I infer that you are envisioning the holes being there in the metal structure would be because a large object had passed through it. Such an object should have left a hole or a path, such that itself, or a similar object, would be able to pass through a second time along the same route, now without meeting any significant hindrance. That does not appear to me to be the case, some metal elements seem to be still in the suggested path through the putative 'hole'

Whatever went through there may have gotten sliced up as it passed through. Then it would fall back down in pieces.

But we cannot say there is a hole because an object passed through it, and if there is no hole fitting the size of the object it is because the object must have gotten sliced up. That would seem to be getting a bit ridiculous.

 

[~kujala~]

TEPCO says the concentration of radioactive Cesium in water sampled from the pit was 620,000 times higher than the safety limit set by the government. The utility also says it detected 1.5 milli-sieverts per hour of radiation on the surface of water in the pit, which indicates contaminated water may be leaking into the sea.

http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/11_29.html

This means radiation was either 37 200 Bq/cm3 for Cs-134 or 55 800 Bq/cm3 for Cs-137.

The biggest values for the unit 2 from the water near the sea (but not the sea water itself) were 1 900 000 Bq/cm3 for Cs-134 and 1 900 000 Bq/cm3 for Cs-137:
http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/press/corp-com/release/betu11_e/images/110405e30.pdf

Although the values are high for the unit 3, they are so far only about 2 - 3 % of the maximum values for the unit 2.

No high-level leak to the sea is possible at the current moment because this leak would be seen in the radiation levels of the sea water. But the radiation levels of the sea water near the plant have been going down for a quite long time:
http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/press/corp-com/release/betu11_e/images/110511e13.pdf

The interesting thing is that as far as I remember they have not given the level of radiation in the trench of the unit 3 because of the debris:
http://geospatial.blogs.com/geospat...ve-water-confirmed-in-trench-near-unit-2.html

The max radiation in the turbine building 3 was 750 mSv/h on March 27th so this 1,5 mSv/h either indicates that not that much water is leaking from the turbine building or that the level of radiation has been going steadily down. It's a good sign, I think.
http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/RS_Contaminated_pools_to_the_drained_2703111.html

 

[zapperzero]

FWIW, I too feel the discussion is retreading old ground without new evidence. I'd much rather discuss the new tanks being set up, the new leaks found, the new photographic evidence (speaking of which, did anyone save the whole JNN webcam feed sequence where they pan around?).

 

[Astronuc]

On March 28^th https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=3214616&postcount=1685"

I think both of you stand to be corrected
could it be the gate to the equipment pool, we are looking south
[PLAIN]http://k.min.us/ikOZEo.jpg[/QUOTE] Ah thanks for that. I was thinking the other picture was looking from E or W, but wasn't sure.

If that is looking north at the DS pit then, the back wall is the structure between the DS pit and reactor cavity. They would not transfer fuel through there, but they would transfer the steam separator and possible steam dryer. The steam leakage then would seem to be coming from containment - possibly the reactor cavity.

 

[AntonL]

Guys.. are we rediscovering the wheel? rediscovering all the evidences we discovered one month ago ?

one month? this story is now two month old.

Yah - new members regurgitate the old stuff and sometimes also bring crackpot ideas, upon which we then joyfully defend our more realistic ideas in reply, instead of just ignoring.

Has this forum got a function to hide post from certain members?

 

[AntonL]

FWIW, I too feel the discussion is retreading old ground without new evidence. I'd much rather discuss the new tanks being set up, the new leaks found, the new photographic evidence (speaking of which, did anyone save the whole JNN webcam feed sequence where they pan around?).

I fully agree with you the new stuff is interesting the old stuff adds noise to the forum. Unfortunately the signal to noise ratio is decreasing.

Regarding the panning of JNN feed, I do not know how to download and save video streaming. Any advice?

I used Alt PrtSC to save the screen somewhere else and return to the stream, and repeat but and a few seconds get lost, that is way I made the panorama which I posted earlier. I suppose I was lucky to tune in at the right moment, as shortly afterwards it returned to its normal shot of covering the 4 reactors.

 

[TCups]

I don't doubt that some people have a lot of trouble recognizing things in that wreckage. As I said, please show me where I'm wrong - sorry if I cannot accept a general concept that I might have gotten tricked by my brain as proof that this doesn't exist.

I used to make my living making 2D drawings on a drafting board for many years, and then I designed on a Cad station. I'm pretty good at interpreting things in 3D - if you point out where I'm incorrect, I will have no trouble seeing it.

The screen grabs of the helicopter flyover clearly show the opening I'm talking about. BTW that's been the best piece of visual evidence that has been released so far, because it wasn't cropped and edited as much as most of what we see.

I didn't say that a hole didn't exist or that you were "wrong". I do say that the human visual physiology results in "seeing" things the mid organizes as cognitive visual sets, including portions of girders that form the boundary of a hole. The mind's eye tends to see the hole primarily. That can sometimes be a mistake when the actual visual information is not the hole, but the apparent boundaries of the hole.

The mind's eye sees a hole lighter than the background of the white paper in the visual illusion I attached as an illustration. Is the background actually "whiter" where the "hole" is? No.

http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/cep/39/4/images/thumb_cep_39_4_491_fig4a.jpg

As for the existence of a hole perceptually visible in the wreckage, yes, I see it too. But it does not correspond to the location of the primary containment's top plug or where it might have reasonably been ejected, and it is within a building structure that exploded violently.

I don't know if the apparent hole has any relative significance. My assessment, though, is that the hole did not result from the ejection of the top plug or any of the contents of the RPV. That's all.

 

[maddog1964]

CAUTION: (Not intended to be taken as documented post) To anyone interested... there have been several post regarding "secondary piping" in which I believe will come into play in the end... they are major components to the water purification/balancing and other functions (very complex systems)
I do not have all the research done to post at the time.. but will gladly share my thoughts and direction I have been following if anyone care to look into,,

three earlier posts #5281 #5653 #5682 that give more information on subjects in the recent converstations... (all data should be confirmed if possible, as I do make mistakes, and I am still sorting known and unkowns)

Bluid number four was in "refuling and maintance" this changes all paramiters to "unknown" as items not permitted are "permitted" under "saftey guidelines" during these periods, Tepco has just released information that there may have been other "conbustibles" in building four. I have not seen the Tepco release, just media. (i like to verify them as they can be wrong.

Secondary (may be a trade term, not the official term) piping/equipment does seem to retain by-products from the reactor and SFP's ... it IMOP should very well have an "residuale" Radiation contamination variable here. I do not have all the back-up need to post. still working on it.

Some safety and seondary piping seem to share components, this depends on the definition of what is being called safety and secondary and primary.

The main question is "does it have rad contanition" "what is the life cycle" and most inportantanly is "Were is this equipment, associated piping and the "sludge/resin beds" NOW. What each piece does and how much "gas" (no elect to vent) and time to form gas (if applicable) to accumulate and assist as a contrabution to the events is part of the unknow. The locations of some of the missing panels line up with the equipment locations (not all buildings and not all reactors have the same systems) Important to remember the some systems that were operating in MOX reactors MAY have different "sludge chemistry" than those that are none mox.. I am still looking at the chemistry of the sludge, but since they now have "sludge" from the wastetreatment plants that are not on site , it would seem to confirm that the "sludge" is a collector and holder of the radiation.

The plant also has its own (low level I believe) wastetreatment plant, and a "off-gasing" building. Form the pictures that have come out recently, these buildings seem to be effected, not just the stack. (I am still tracing these, not a fact)

But the gasing and by-products may or may not be part of some of the answers. Was it a fuel rod found XXXX mies from the plant or did it come from a sludge tank projectile of building number 3?

I only put these thoughs out there as "what ifs" please do not attack, just don't consider. I have been looking at these for a while and the nuclear field is not somehting that is in my field. Also I am not interested in just Tepco slamming, as unless you are fimilar with the compexites of these plants and systems, what seem ouvious is not!

sorry so long. thanks

 

[elektrownik]

Interesting question: unit 4 was without fuel, but why they don't use its sensors ? They could check temperature, radiation and water level, if gate from sfp to core is damaged this could be usefule to measure SFP parameters. Also there was heat source in core (water from SFP ?) so it would be interesting to know its temperature (core).

 

[SteveElbows]

Guys.. are we rediscovering the wheel? rediscovering all the evidences we discovered one month ago ?

Probably. Yesterday when I brought up the images of steam escaping from side of storage pool concrete gate, I assumed it may well have been discussed a while ago, and I was just bringing it up again in light of the recent IAEA comment about photo of containment crack at reactor 3. But I was not expecting was to see the conversation go round in a loop several times within the 24 hours since I made my post.

Oh well, never mind eh, even though there is plenty of repetition in this thread it hopefully still helps some people to learn something new.

Tune in tomorrow when someone goes 'oh my god, reactor 4 is leaning', or 'if I stand on my head and squint, I can see the reactor pressure vessel being rude to a nun' ;)

 

[maddog1964]

I wish we knew. Unless and until TEPCO reveals that information I'm afraid we'll have to keep making educated guesses (or wait for more document leaks). I'm going to have another look at the Oyster Creek blueprints this week; it's been a while since I looked at them closely. Maybe something will stand out now that some time has passed.

Oyster Creek (BWR-2) has 2 large "emergency condensers" located one level down below the refueling floor. I'm pretty sure I read that Dai-ichi Unit 1 (BWR-3) has similar condensers, but Units 2-5 (BWR-4) do not. That's something I want to clarify.

I have been working on the equipment locations from the few documents that I have some information you may want to look at

1) the bp of building #1 shows two isolations condensers Equip# 1302 A & B, but have at the same time seen P&ID's, that I can not verify source on that do not show. Considering they are on the drawing would think that may take preference, Please note that there are five revisoins listed on the drawing, but no cloulds showing the revisions.

2) If you look at the pictures of Bld two (needs check) it apperars that there are two exhaust shown on the correct location (this also needs verified, I was working on, but have not confirmed)

3) Why would these exhaust directly to the outside and not a scrubber system? that is were I was when I seen your post and have not gotten back to items one and two. Conclusion what I have seen so far is that because "some NPP have what would be built or called a heat exchanger" and it works on a primary/secondary separation therory, in that no radiation would vent to the outside. But in looking at the "could this be true, as it surpirses me that it would vent directly from the reacter building to outside) I came across an incident report here in the US that such a failure happened and did infact cause low level contanination..

With that said I make no claim, this is what applies to Japan , its my interpitation of what I have found so far, and have not completed the research i am working on. but wanted to offer this if it helps you in your search. Gladly comment as more head are better than one.

 

[Jeff_H]

Page 6 of this:

http://www.slideshare.net/iaea/technical-briefing-11-0505

In the containment integrity row and the observation column, the last point thing it says is:

'Images of Unit 3 show crack in the primary containment and steam released from the reactor building.'

The lack of detail is what has caused me to have room to wonder whether the images I just mentioned could be what they refer to, or whether I am looking at the right part of the building at all. For now I'd say the footage I refer to is a potential candidate, but I would welcome lots more opinion on this matter.

Have you noticed that there are 6 seconds cut from the video at 3:20, just when it appears to be focused on the stacks of concrete from the bio sheild, and the source of the steam?

 

[zapperzero]

Regarding the panning of JNN feed, I do not know how to download and save video streaming. Any advice?

Try this:
http://www.dreamingsoft.com/flashcapture/index.htm
flash cap, don't know if it works on "endless" streams, added benefit of sound ofc
Or this:
http://camstudio.org/
screen video cap, all-purpose, free, can't do audio

Later edit: oh yes, you were lucky.

 

[ihatelies]

I may not have expressed myself clearly. I infer that you are envisioning the holes being there in the metal structure would be because a large object had passed through it. Such an object should have left a hole or a path, such that itself, or a similar object, would be able to pass through a second time along the same route, now without meeting any significant hindrance. That does not appear to me to be the case, some metal elements seem to be still in the suggested path through the putative 'hole'

But we cannot say there is a hole because an object passed through it, and if there is no hole fitting the size of the object it is because the object must have gotten sliced up. That would seem to be getting a bit ridiculous.

This is where a typing on a forum limits the communication. I'm sorry if I'm not very clear.

I didn't say that a hole exists that could be used again, and I didn't intend to say those cross beams perfectly sliced whatever passed through, I said they were broken off on the other end, and I meant to imply that there existence would likely cause damage to whatever passed through - We all know that when large forces occur - even very strong materials like steel can deform significantly and then spring back somewhat.

You have seen evidence, from a couple different views that a hole exists, and that beams are deformed in a manner which suggests a large round object passing through.

Does that prove that the reactor core ejected? - no it clearly does not - it is strong circumstantial evidence that must be proven with additional facts.

However by the same logic, it's existence also proves that something did occur, and there has to be some explanation for that occurence.

I put the following major facts together:
1. the strong verticality of the #3 explosion
2. the existence of a round hole in the roof structure just about lined up with the reactor core and
3. the existence of some very hot debris on the Northwest corner of the wreckage - right where you see some of the debris from the explosion fall.
4. the soundtrack of the explosion, which has a strange "whooshing" sound at the end of the booms, which I think is the steel roof structure and possibly the cranes collapsing back down on the structure after they were lifted. and
5. The large cloud of radioactive material that existed after the #3 explosion that panicked the crew of the USS Ronald Reagan and caused them to redeploy elsewhere (first time I ever remember a US aircraft carrier battle group turning and steaming away from an important mission)
and 6. The PR wall of secrecy over #3 - the constant diversions to other issues - the cropping of pictures and the editing of videos, so that we can't see what's really happening.

Am I right? - let me tell you I hope I'm not - but I have to see another explanation for those facts that seems physically plausible.

 

[mrcurious]

Did you read the second part of my post? The second picture I posted proves it didn't have to come off "spinning like a frisbee". The entire roof structure is moved exactly one section to the south. Which puts that hole directly over the reactor core.

And I don't necessarily believe the thermal imagery, since it showed the whole shebang as at very low temps.

So first off, do you believe something went vertical through that hole?

I don't see it that way. To me it looks as if the eastern roof structure is pretty much in the place it should be although it may have dropped horizontally, while the western end appears to have shifted only one half panel to the south (indicating an explosion in the northwest section of the service floor?). The roof girders over the PCV are still over the PCV. As we see in the northwest and southeast corners the roof girders would have blown away if there was an RPV explosion.

You're trying to make the evidence fit your theory. Theories should follow the evidence, not the other way around.

 

[elektrownik]

Much steam/smoke from unit 3 core location. And about core: it couldn't be ejected, radiation is the answer, if core, fuel from core or fuel from sfp would be ejected radiation would be giant X-XXSv/h not mSv as it is, the hot spots could be parts of reactor cap, or concrede shield, they were exposed to big amount of radioactive steam.

 

[mrcurious]

Did you read the second part of my post? The second picture I posted proves it didn't have to come off "spinning like a frisbee". The entire roof structure is moved exactly one section to the south. Which puts that hole directly over the reactor core.

And I don't necessarily believe the thermal imagery, since it showed the whole shebang as at very low temps.

So first off, do you believe something went vertical through that hole?

Related question. Isn't one continuous steam cloud coming from reactor 3? And the other one from the fuel pond?

Reactor/PCV steam may be coming from vent tubes or blown welds on structure penetrations. I think this is backed up by the thermal images which show a very hot SFP and a semi cold PCV with three hot spots around it's perimeter.

 

[pdObq]

To be more precise there is no double layered steel structure on the north and south end as there is no transversal beam adjacent to the wall. But there still is a single layered steel structure.

I' don't feel like going over every argument again but I've reup a better view of the roof been deformation, that also show you the secondary pool wall, the one adjacent to the reactor concrete slab with a crane on top , toping the reactor biological shield, the one toping the reactor core vessel lid..
[PLAIN]http://k.min.us/ikOZG2.jpg[/QUOTE]

Ah thanks for that. I was thinking the other picture was looking from E or W, but wasn't sure.

If that is looking north at the DS pit then, the back wall is the structure between the DS pit and reactor cavity. They would not transfer fuel through there, but they would transfer the steam separator and possible steam dryer. The steam leakage then would seem to be coming from containment - possibly the reactor cavity.

Did not Tepco themselves mention a while ago something about that the bellows seal between the RPV and the drywell walls at the top of the reactor is damaged in unit3. So, steam can escape from the RPV into the space under the concrete shields (= reactor cavity?).

EDIT: See this post for the bellows seal: https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=3281660&postcount=5687 . But I am wondering now, if the RPV-to-drywell bellows seal leaks, it should leak into the drywell head, no? (in that sketch the reactor head and the drywell head are not drawn). And, there shouldn't be steam coming out from the drywell-to-reactor-building seal (unless coming from in between drywell steel vessel and concrete around it). How were those speculations about stretched drywell and or/RPV head bolts?

 

[AntonL]

I'd much rather discuss the new tanks being set up.

I take you up on this.

Normally when a nuclear plant is build very stringent material approval procedures, erection procedures, testing procedures etc need to be followed, both client and consultant oversee these steps and on occasion even reject materials, designs etc when they are not convinced of the suitability and quality.

Now, Tepco has this super emergency and observing the little bit that is being released, I often ask myself is this really nuclear appropriated or akin to a "farmer makes a plan", the first time this question i asked in https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=3263462&postcount=4715"

The same question I ask with the installation of what is obvious second hand tanks (rust marks on the flanges). I stated earlier I can see no evidence of deep foundations (no excavation marks) just a leveling slab of concrete on the tarmac. Supposedly they will use similar temporary flexible pipes to pump contaminated water to these tanks. Furthermore these tanks are bottom filled (as per the drawing snippet), catastrophic result if failure in filling system.

I know it is easy to criticize sitting in an armchair and not being involved in the emergency team, but who is there to check hasty decisions in a situation that changes daily. Are apparently sub-standard solutions acceptable in a emergency situation? One can be lucky and it works however one can be equally unlucky and have great mess somewhere else.

I have worked for and with Japanese for more than 16 years and I have experienced a very narrow mindset when things do not run correctly in a project. Just solve this problem to the satisfaction of the client/consultant even if other things go wrong in the meantime, the other things the client has not realized and these can be fixed later quietly. This same mind set I experienced in a small scale I believe I am experiencing in a Mega-scale.

I would really like to see a new satellite view of Fukushima as a whole, only that way we can judge if things are happening on a grander scale or not.

Water tanks being erected at Fukushima or is it the Areva processing plant?
all in Japanese.
[PLAIN]http://k.min.us/inguKS.JPG
[PLAIN]http://k.min.us/jkT9d2.JPG
These seem to be dismantled tanks from somewhere else (rust marks on flanges), I hope they do not leak and are earthquake resistant.

[PLAIN]http://k.min.us/ikP9QM.JPG

 

[pdObq]

I did find another document re. the Oyster Creek plant that lists the weights of certain equipment that's moved around the RB by crane. Some of that was interesting, for instance it gives the weight of the 8 semi-circular cavity shield plugs as 85 tons (77,000 kg) each, which is heavier than the drywell head (56,245 kg) and the RPV head (68,311 kg). It gives the weight of the Stud Tensioner Assembly as 24 tons (21,770 kg). All numbers are probably unique to Oyster Creek, but similar plants are likely to be within a similar range.

One thing mentioned that I wasn't aware of is the existence of 4 "Equipment Storage Pool Shield Plugs", each of which weighs more than 37 tons (30,000 kg). No way to know if such things are used at the Dai-ichi reactor buildings, or their size/weight. The equipment pools at Dai-ichi seem to be different in size and shape compared to the one at Oyster Creek, so I won't draw too many conclusions.

The document is accession number ML011270047 if anyone wants the whole thing from the NRC website. I've attached the 2-page excerpt of the Heavy Loads weight table.

Oh, interesting, they actually do have shield plugs for the SFP...
Are those actually used?

 

[ihatelies]

As for the existence of a hole perceptually visible in the wreckage, yes, I see it too. But it does not correspond to the location of the primary containment's top plug or where it might have reasonably been ejected, and it is within a building structure that exploded violently.

OK good, you can see it, so it's not just in my imagination. Now show me how it does not correspond to the location of the top plug. I think it very nearly lines up on the North/South axis - particularly if the plug exists between column 3 and column 4, instead of directly under number 4 (refer back to my numbering scheme saying #4 is the center of the building and #1 is the south end - I don't know if there is a more proper column numbering scheme). And on the East/West axis, it alignes perfectly.

I don't know if the apparent hole has any relative significance. My assessment, though, is that the hole did not result from the ejection of the top plug or any of the contents of the RPV. That's all.

I've apparently shown you some information you didn't have before (please refer back if you've discussed this hole before and I will stay quiet about it). I'm very interested in anyone's logical assessment.

 

[pdObq]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/xtcbz/sets/72157626687253144/

These photos were taken by a person concerned in late April.

THANK YOU

I hope this will be enough for the disbeliever get over the tilting UNIT 4 theory

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3056/5705932388_dca31f4961_o.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2369/5705368411_4a2ee8f0a6_o.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3099/5705937752_99f42dca4b_o.jpg

I'll get back to this in a jiffy
[PLAIN]http://k.min.us/inkwkk.jpg[/QUOTE]

Alright now, so it really looks like it is leaning towards the east. The new images are great, but as the poster stated they are from late April. Unit 4 probably was not leaning back then. I guess it hard to come up with an optical illusion or camera related issue explanation with those new images from the live feed.

 

[mrcurious]

While I certainly can see what you are talking about, I am hesitant to consider it a round hole in the sense that a huge round object could've passed unhindered through it. There appears to be several remains of the higher lying roof structure elements in the way, which appear relatively unscathed by the general utter destruction in this area, as well as more specifically an assumed collision with a passing through large object.
[URL]http://www.gyldengrisgaard.dk/fuku_docs/20110324_down_3_epicenter.jpg[/URL]

That said, this 'hole' you are highlighting does seem to be closely the epicenter of the events that shook unit 3 so badly.

Yes. All that proves is something might have been driven through the roof. To claim it was the reactor top is a conclusion not supported by any other evidence.

 

[etudiant]

I take you up on this.

Normally when a nuclear plant is build very stringent material approval procedures, erection procedures, testing procedures etc need to be followed, both client and consultant oversee these steps and on occasion even reject materials, designs etc when they are not convinced of the suitability and quality.

Now, Tepco has this super emergency and observing the little bit that is being released, I often ask myself is this really nuclear appropriated or akin to a "farmer makes a plan", the first time this question i asked in https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=3263462&postcount=4715"

The same question I ask with the installation of what is obvious second hand tanks (rust marks on the flanges). I stated earlier I can see no evidence of deep foundations (no excavation marks) just a leveling slab of concrete on the tarmac. Supposedly they will use similar temporary flexible pipes to pump contaminated water to these tanks. Furthermore these tanks are bottom filled (as per the drawing snippet), catastrophic result if failure in filling system.

I know it is easy to criticize sitting in an armchair and not being involved in the emergency team, but who is there to check hasty decisions in a situation that changes daily. Are apparently sub-standard solutions acceptable in a emergency situation - one can be lucky and it works however one can be equally unlucky and have great mess somewhere else.

I have worked for and with Japanese for more than 16 years and I have experienced a very narrow mindset when things do not run correctly in a project. Just solve this problem to the satisfaction of the client/consultant even if other things go wrong in the meantime, the other things the client has not realized and these can be fixed later quietly. This same mind set I experienced in a small scale I believe I am experiencing in a Mega-scale.

I would really like to see a new satellite view of Fukushima as a whole, only that way we can judge if things are happening on a grander scale or not.

Thank you for this interesting picture. It is the first I've seen of the storage tanks that will need to hold the roughly 100,000 cubic meters of water accumulating in the plant by the time the water decontamination plant starts operations.
The site however seems planned for 20 tanks, each about 6 meters high and about 10 meters in diameter, for a volume of only some 10,000 cubic meters. Where is the rest of the installation?

 

[SteveElbows]

I guess it hard to come up with an optical illusion or camera related issue explanation with those new images from the live feed.

Not at all, in fact I find it increasingly difficult to take the 'unit 4 is leaning' seriously.

Its simply an issue of perspective, location of camera, and the general poor state of unit 4.

if you try to look only at the concrete frame of the building, rather than other debris and remains of various panels, the leaning appearance diminishes greatly. Especially if you look at the very corner of the building where south wall meets west wall (to the right of the painted number 4), its pretty straight.

We also have the images taken from the ground, which are apparently from later in April, and the building really hasnt changed much at all compared to the early shots we got. Let's suggest that if the leaning theory had any credibility, then the large April 11th earthquake which was bi enough to warrant being noted in the official updates for each reactor, is a contender for 'event which caused the leaning'. Well we've seen photos likely taken after that date and the only notable change is the small bit of concrete at corner of reactor 3 building has fallen to the ground, unit 4 hasnt changed.

In a few places the wall bulges out, but in no way can the whole building be said to be leaning in the way that people have tried to suggest in recent days using live feed images.

 

[mrcurious]

this is a picture of the north end
http://i.min.us/inkjAa.jpg
Could you please point out what you believe are pile of ..well rod like = small tubes.
I don"t recall any mention of reddish Smoke, but could you refresh my memories.

For the rest of the statement I believe you are referring to the pictures and the following video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBeY7URe9q8
I would agree that one could wonder why in order to fill the Fuel Pool the truck is positioned there.

Someone mentioned a "Radioactive Waste Room" in the northwest corner of the building. Could this be a temporary storage facility for rods that are taken out of the SFP and awaiting transfer to the common SFP? If so could these be the answer to a possible explosion in that part of the building?