Bush NOT Honest & Trustworthy/Republican Lies

[SOS2008]

Since I could not find the original thread on this topic, and it is not in the directory of frequently discussed topics (but should be), here’s an update on a few (major) events:

Call it the year of lame excuses [or more lies]

By Alex Johnson
Reporter
MSNBC
Updated: 9:04 a.m. ET Dec. 29, 2005

“I don’t think anybody anticipated the breach of the levees,” President Bush said on Sept. 1, three days after Hurricane Katrina punctured the system of dams protecting New Orleans and created the greatest natural disaster in American history.

Unfortunately for the president, that wasn’t true, as news reports about studies that did just that would make clear. But it sounded good at the time.

----------

Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff said three days later, explaining why his department was slow to respond to the devastation. “Because, if you recall, the storm moved to the east and then continued on and appeared to pass with considerable damage but nothing worse.”

Of course, it didn’t. And even if it had, that would only have meant that the bullet took out Mississippi and Alabama, rather than Louisiana. But it sounded good at the time.

----------

Fifteen years after she collapsed in a coma and seven years after various members of her family began fighting in court over what to do with her, Terri Schiavo died in a hospice in Pinellas Park, Fla., in March. The battle over which relatives should have the final say in whether to remove her feeding tube turned into a proxy for the abortion wars as figures from Florida Gov. Jeb Bush to the Rev. Jesse Jackson weighed in on the meaning of life.

Quotation: “This is not somebody in a persistent vegetative state,” Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, R-Tenn., a physician, diagnosed in Washington after watching Schiavo on videotape. Turns out she was, as her autopsy revealed.

----------

The CIA leak investigation ground on, bringing the indictment of I. Lewis “Scooter” Libby, Vice President Dick Cheney’s chief of staff, and the jailing of New York Times reporter Judith Miller. At year’s end, special prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald impaneled a new grand jury to continue his investigation, leaving the fate of White House Deputy Chief of Staff Karl Rove unresolved.

Quotation: “I’m not going to discuss an ongoing legal proceeding,” White House press secretary Scott McClellan said over and over, backtracking from his firm statement two years ago that Libby and Rove “assured me they were not involved in this.”

----------

The U.S. military death toll topped 2,000 — a symbolic milestone that the White House dismissed as substantively meaningless — and Bush himself put the total number of Iraqis killed at 30,000.

Quotation: “It is true that much of the intelligence turned out to be wrong,” Bush said in December, after his administration largely denied exactly that for almost three years.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10576609/page/3/

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I assume that you mean this one
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=90611&highlight=trick

 

[SOS2008]

I assume that you mean this one
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=90611&highlight=trick

Yes, that was the main one -- thanks! Oh you super mentors with your super powers.

 

[SOS2008]

Belafonte accuses Bush of Gestapo tactics
Associated Press
Updated: 7:57 p.m. ET Jan. 21, 2006

NEW YORK - Entertainer Harry Belafonte, one of the Bush administration’s harshest critics, compared the Homeland Security Department to the Nazi Gestapo on Saturday and attacked the president as a liar.

“We’ve come to this dark time in which the new Gestapo of Homeland Security lurks here, where citizens are having their rights suspended,” Belafonte said in a speech to the annual meeting of the Arts Presenters Members Conference.

“You can be arrested and not charged. You can be arrested and have no right to counsel,” said Belafonte.

Belafonte’s remarks on Saturday — part of a 45-minute speech on the role of the arts in a politically changing world — were greeted with a roaring standing ovation from an audience which included singer Peter Yarrow of the folk group Peter, Paul and Mary, and members of the arts community from several dozen countries.

----------

He had called President Bush “the greatest terrorist in the world” during a trip to Venezuela two weeks ago.

----------

He acknowledged that the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks demanded a reaction by the United States, but said the policies of the Bush administration were not the right response.

“Fascism is fascism. Terrorism is terrorism. Oppression is oppression,” said Belafonte, who served in the U.S. Navy during World War II.

Bush, he said, rose to power “somewhat dubiously and ... then lies to the people of this nation, misleads them, misinstructs, and then sends off hundreds of thousands of our own boys and girls to a foreign land that has not aggressed against us.”

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10964067/

<Insert clapping and cheering smilie here. >

 

[loseyourname]

Even if you agree that Bush is a liar and has suspended many civil liberties, I don't see how you can clap and cheer at a singer comparing Homeland Security to the Gestapo. The DHS might tap some phone lines and conduct some questionable investigations, but the Gestapo hauled people off to death camps. When people make these sensationalistic comparisons, they're only hurting their own case and making themselves look like partisan fearmongers. Given that Belafonte probably thinks Bush is a partisan fearmonger, shouldn't he try to avoid becoming the same thing?

 

[Cyrus]

Well, it all depends on your race loseyourname. If you are middle eastern, you very well could be hauled off with no reason and sent to guantanamo and not be given the right to trial or even see a lawer for years.

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety".

The US did this to a Canadian citizen and held him in a secret Syrian prison. It was big news in Canada for his release.

 

[loseyourname]

Well, it all depends on your race loseyourname. If you are middle eastern, you very well could be hauled off with no reason and sent to guantanamo and not be given the right to trial or even see a lawer for years.

I sympathize with them, but it's still not the same as being hauled off to be used as slave labor, having human pain thresholds tested on you, then being systematically killed. And the US isn't attempting to haul off and kill every single Islamic person in the Americas to eliminate their race from the planet.

I still don't see how any reasonable person can honestly expect to be taken seriously if they're going to compare questionable investigation techniques to one of history's largest genocides.

 

[ComputerGeek]

I sympathize with them, but it's still not the same as being hauled off to be used as slave labor, having human pain thresholds tested on you, then being systematically killed. And the US isn't attempting to haul off and kill every single Islamic person in the Americas to eliminate their race from the planet.
I still don't see how any reasonable person can honestly expect to be taken seriously if they're going to compare questionable investigation techniques to one of history's largest genocides.

Even the Gestapo started small.

it was not until the final solution was implemented that any of the killing started.

perhaps one should just ay that Bush and his administration are leaning toward the Gestapo side a bit and some people are afraid they may begin to fall.

 

[russ_watters]

Are you serious?? You said "perhaps" - but out with it: do you actually think Bush wants to start killing-off American Muslims and if so, do you have any evidence from Bush's past actions that he actually wants to start doing that?

Once again, Gestapo was death camps.

And FYI, Hitler made references to that as early as 1919. It was always his goal to exterminate the Jews. Has Bush ever said he desires to exterminate the Muslims? Regardless of when, though - what's your point? You are pretty much saying outright that Bush is going in that direction. That's over-the-top absurd.

 

[ComputerGeek]

Are you serious?? You said "perhaps" - but out with it: do you actually think Bush wants to start killing-off American Muslims and if so, do you have any evidence from Bush's past actions that he actually wants to start doing that?
Once again, Gestapo was death camps.
And FYI, Hitler made references to that as early as 1919. It was always his goal to exterminate the Jews. Has Bush ever said he desires to exterminate the Muslims? Regardless of when, though - what's your point? You are pretty much saying outright that Bush is going in that direction. That's over-the-top absurd.

Your right.. I should have said "the bush administration" because it is obvious that Bush is not running his brach at all.

There are many around him that I think DO in fact want to exterminate Muslims, but smart people learn from the past, and they know to be quiet about such things.

Oh, and Gestapo was the secret police... they were around before they even started sending the jews to the ghettos.

 

[Bystander]

(snip)... they were around before they even started sending the jews to the ghettos.

There must be something to Nazi mysticism! They were able to go back in time and establish the Gestapo prior to 1516 (the Venice ghetto; there could be older examples). Nifty.

Belafonte accuses Bush of Gestapo tactics
Associated Press
Updated: 7:57 p.m. ET Jan. 21, 2006
NEW YORK - Entertainer Harry Belafonte, one of the Bush administration’s harshest critics, compared the Homeland Security Department to the Nazi Gestapo on Saturday and attacked the president as a liar.
“We’ve come to this dark time in which the new Gestapo of Homeland Security lurks here, where citizens are having their rights suspended,” Belafonte said in a speech to the annual meeting of the Arts Presenters Members Conference.
“You can be arrested and not charged. You can be arrested and have no right to counsel,” said Belafonte...

Nothing new: Roosevelt in WW II, social services types for the last 20-30 years, DEA for however long they've been operating; Washington might have done his two terms without a whole lot of fibbing, but that was the last time this country might have had a president who told it as it was or is.
Someone who just fell from the turnip truck yesterday and has never seen nor heard any politician before in his/her life might be so naive as to expect Jimmy Stewart (Mr. Deeds) conduct from public figures. People who have not been raised in a social or political vacuum really should know better than to expect other people to buy the sort of nonsense Belafonte is peddling.

 

[loseyourname]

I really don't get this "enemy of my enemy is my friend" thing? Are people really so hateful of Bush that they're willing to endorse any criticism of his administration and actions, even when it's this far off-base? Hell, I'm as pro-small government and civil liberties as anyone, and don't like a lot of what the justice department and it's subsidiaries have done, but Belafonte is being an idiot and there is no comparison between Homeland Security and the Gestapo. Sure, they started small by seizing all Jewish owned businesses and assets, making them all wear stars of David on their sleezes, and making it legal to harass or harm them in pretty much any way one pleased.

Look, holding detainees without access to legal counsel is unconstitutional and a terrible thing to do, but we lose perspective when we start comparing every police state action to Nazism. It's sensationalism and the posters in here are smart enough to know that. Has history always been this prone to hyperbole? I know ESPN is eager to proclaim every exceptional young athlete that comes up as the greatest prospect ever and any team that performs well as the greatest ever, and the Ron Artest brawl from last year as the worst thing to ever happen to the NBA, but does this same tendency need to infect legitimate news reporting as well? Was every religious nut claiming to be a prophet the next Jesus back in the day? Was every guy that conquered ten acres the next Alexander the Great? Can't thing just be what they are? Isn't it enough that Bush is doing perfectly detestable things (heck, compare him to Lincoln and Roosevelt) without needing to compare him to one of the most evil and prolific dictators that ever lived? Was Clinton comparable to Caligula?

 

[rachmaninoff]

Well said.

 

[russ_watters]

There are many around him that I think DO in fact want to exterminate Muslims, but smart people learn from the past, and they know to be quiet about such things.

Wow. Just wow.
LYN, I guess it isn't hyperbole if you really believe it, is it? That doesn't make it any less absurd, but at least we know it's a real opinion.

Even the Gestapo started small.

4 doesn't equal 6, Computergeek. Even if you think they are "leaning" in that direction (whatever that means ) or just being secretive or starting off slow (which then means your opinion is based on... nothing), the fact of the matter is that the Bush admin hasn't done anything that can be compared to Hitler. Gitmo is not a death camp. Muslims are not wearing armbands or being discriminated against (ie, the laws against owning businesses or voting) by the law - these were some of Hitler's very first acts against the Jews and the Bush admin hasn't even come close.

Computergeek, maybe you honestly believe it, which means (kinda) that it isn't hyperbole, but believing that 6=4 is not reasonable or rational.

 

[ComputerGeek]

Wow. Just wow.
LYN, I guess it isn't hyperbole if you really believe it, is it? That doesn't make it any less absurd, but at least we know it's a real opinion.

I think you underestimate the kind of character that some of his advisors have.

 

[russ_watters]

I think you underestimate the kind of character that some of his advisors have.

And I think your opinion has no basis whatsoever. Heck, you practically admitted as much! They are going slow (and Bush only has 3 years left) and being secretive (so you know things you say we don't know because they are secret ).

How do you know, Computergeek? Give us some facts. Make a logical argument. Hyperbole or not, again, it is still absurd if it is baseless.

 

[Treadstone 71]

The US did this to a Canadian citizen and held him in a secret Syrian prison. It was big news in Canada for his release.

Indeed, it is upsetting that a fellow Canadian was shipped to Syria by the U.S., as was subsequently tortured. Why did they do it? Why, everyone was doing it; it was the cool thing to do, of course.

 

[ComputerGeek]

And I think your opinion has no basis whatsoever. Heck, you practically admitted as much! They are going slow (and Bush only has 3 years left) and being secretive (so you know things you say we don't know because they are secret ).
How do you know, Computergeek? Give us some facts. Make a logical argument. Hyperbole or not, again, it is still absurd if it is baseless.

First off, I was providing an argument as to how Belefonte COULD have made such a comparison. That does not mean that I agree with everything he said.

I know you have heard many people express such opinion about Muslims. I have heard many people of all ages make such comments. I think it is much more likely that the Neo-conservatives around bush either openly or secretly wish to get rid of all muslims. Heck... Some in Bush's administration actually advised Bush to nuke Mecca after sept. 11.

 

[Treadstone 71]

Quotation: “It is true that much of the intelligence turned out to be wrong,” Bush said in December, after his administration largely denied exactly that for almost three years.

Pre-war intelligence? It was rock solid! The president himself said so. Surely the president would not base a war and thousands upon thousands of casualties on unreliable information now, would he? Yup, only a matter of time before them Iraqi nukes are found.

 

[ComputerGeek]

Pre-war intelligence? It was rock solid! The president himself said so. Surely the president would not base a war and thousands upon thousands of casualties on unreliable information now, would he? Yup, only a matter of time before them Iraqi nukes are found.

Surely he would not lie about warrantless searches either.

 

[Treadstone 71]

Surely he would not lie about warrantless searches either.

Of course not! After all, the government knows best.

 

[Cyrus]

Just to be clear, I think the nazi comparison is stupid and wrong. To move on,

Gitmo is not a death camp.

Many detainees have died in Gitmo becasuse they went crazy and killed themselves, or were tortured to death.

Muslims are not wearing armbands or being discriminated against

Yes, they are. They are having the Quran thrown in the toilet, being tortured, and being stripped nude and having photos taken of them. They are searched at the airports, the us-government just admitted that whole NSA wire tapping was to spy on mosques and on muslims. They get bad looks from people if they are wearing their religious head-dress.

(ie, the laws against owning businesses or voting) by the law

Yes, they have. It is nearly impossible to send money to loved ones that live in the middle east that are elderly or sick and need the money to survive. Countless legitamite money exchange services were shut down.

Russ, there is more than just what Fox news tells you is going on. Talk to some local muslim citizens to find out what the news doesn't tell you is going on under your very own nose. Alot of un-American things are going on these days, that will make us less secure. Ben Franklin said it best,

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety".

 

[SOS2008]

As usual the debate has digressed into semantics without thought to gradients of meaning. First of all let’s not confuse The Gestapo with Gestapo Tactics (per the title of the article). What I personally applaud is the quote: “Fascism is fascism. Terrorism is terrorism. Oppression is oppression,” and ask where does one draw the line—At what point does a leader/administration move from behaving in a fascist way to being fascist?

I have backed up the position many times in PF with evidence that Bush, et al behaves in a fascist, terrorist, oppressive way (a position held by many respected scholars such as Noam Chomsky, not just a singer). It is cause for legitimate concern. The societies that turn a blind eye to such government actions soon find themselves living in a police state. It is not about hate for Bush, but rather love for country that we must remain vigilant in requiring our government to answer to us, the people.

EDIT: "without thought to gradients of meaning"
----------

Back to the OP, Bush's lies pale in comparison to activities such as illegal domestic spying. But the constant cover-up with lies during his administration has out-stripped all other presidents before him. This is simply a fact, and not about hatred. I haven’t checked the news yet for the lie of the day…Anybody?

 

[phcatlantis]

As usual the debate has digressed into semantics and gradients of meaning.

Then perhaps it would help if you used semantics and gradients of meaning everybody agrees on.

 

[SOS2008]

Okay, then to bring the thread back on topic, I'll start:

The New Bush Lie:

When George Met Jack - White House aides deny the President knew lobbyist Abramoff, but unpublished photos shown to TIME suggest there's more to the story.

The Lie Before That:

It seems the whole "the fact that we were following Osama bin Laden because he was using a certain type of telephone made it into the press as the result of a leak." is nothing but a big, old lie.

The al Qaeda leader's communication to aides via satellite phone had already been reported in 1996 -- and the source of the information was another government, the Taliban, which ruled Afghanistan at the time.

The second time a news organization reported on the satellite phone, the source was bin Laden himself.

 

[Evo]

Have you people forgotten what we did to anyone of Japanese descent after the Pearl Harbor attack? Think about that before you start claiming how "bad" the Bush administration is. I'm not condoning any of it, but don't act like he's the first and only US President to take extraordinary measures after an attack.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_American_internment

Roosevelt was the President that signed Executive order 9066 that allowed the internment of Japanese Americans, he was a Democrat, Ford was the Republican president that rescinded the order. Just a bit of trivia.

Don't be so blinded by Bush bashing and Republican bashing that you fail to put things into perspective.

What's with all this comparison to Gestapo? We need only look at our own history.

 

[Cyrus]

That was a HORRIBLE thing in american history Evo. Something so bad It should never be repeated, ever. Comparing a bad thing to something worse, does not make that bad deed any better. They are both still BAD, period. Neither of them should be acceptable. To repeat a mistake in history IMO is far WORSE than to make a new one, because as a society it means we have not learned a thing from our past.

 

[Evo]

That was a HORRIBLE thing in american history Evo. Something so bad It should never be repeated, ever. Comparing a bad thing to something worse, does not make that bad deed any better. They are both still BAD, period. Neither of them should be acceptable. To repeat a mistake in history IMO is far WORSE than to make a new one, because as a society it means we have not learned a thing from our past.

That's my point, I don't see it being repeated, and we need to make sure it doesn't. I don't think people realize the things Bush could have done after 9/11. I don't believe that with our own recent history he would be allowed to.

What surprises me is that no one has even thought to mention it, instead they keep bringing up German history. It makes me wonder. We should never forget what we are capable of. We need to make sure this never happens again. I just think from reading some of the posts here that people are so into Bush bashing that they aren't thinking clearly. Or maybe people really have forgotten our past or perhaps they slept through history class?

 

[edward]

We need only look at our own history.

That is exactly what bothers me about the current administration. Nearly every major negative societal change in history was initiated by small groups of people meeting in secrecy.

Those secret meetings were followed by secret actions and the secret actions were accomplished by lying to and misleading, first, the governing bodies in general (In this case the Congress) and secondly the general population.

 

[Evo]

That is exactly what bothers me about the current administration. Nearly every major negative societal change in history was initiated by small groups of people meeting in secrecy.
Those secret meetings were followed by secret actions and the secret actions were accomplished by lying to and misleading, first, the governing bodies in general (In this case the Congress) and secondly the general population.

Yet only previous atrocities by Germans have been brought up. I agree, bad things are going on that need to be contained (when haven't they?), but when people get so caught up in a "bashing" mentality that they forget or fail to understand history, they lose their impetus.

People will turn a deaf ear to such unknowledgeable rantings.

I'm not talking about what bad things may be going on in our government, I am addressing the failure of people to make a coherent case. I'm sometimes at a loss for words over the naivité of people.

 

[edward]

I'm not talking about what bad things may be going on in our government, I am addressing the failure of people to make a coherent case.

It is very difficult to make a coherent case against an unknown entity. The current administration has been so secretive and so blasted missleading, many people don't know what to think. They can only envision the scary, "what if", and "anything could happen", worst case scenarios.

A lot of the Bush bashing has been brought on by his own administrations, "we know best and we will keep it a secret", tactics.

 

[Evo]

It is very difficult to make a coherent case against an unknown entity. The current administration has been so secretive and so blasted missleading, many people don't know what to think. They can only envision the scary, "what if" and "anything could happen" worst case scenarios.
A lot of the Bush bashing has been brought on by his own administrations "we know best and we will keep it a secret" tactics.

But really, how is this any different from past administrations? What about Watergate? If you really know American history, you know this is not unusual. Have you read about the intrigue during the Kennedy administration, or even what went on under Johnson? Does anyone even remember President Johnson? Does anyone remember what went on during Nixon's administration?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a Bush fan, and I've said the religious right scares the cr@p out of me. I'm addressing the fact that some posts that I see here aren't making good arguments because they have such tunnel vision. They make it sound like Bush is the first President to have secrets. I'm sorry, but I can't take anyone seriously that doesn't understand how things work. I don't care how valid their concern is, they lose that validity due to their lack of perspective.

I've got to dig out that Nixon coloring book I had when I was younger. "Here are Nixon's eyes, color them 'shifty'". A picture of Orips Wenga on puppet strings.

 

[russ_watters]

It is very difficult to make a coherent case against an unknown entity. The current administration has been so secretive and so blasted missleading, many people don't know what to think. They can only envision the scary, "what if", and "anything could happen", worst case scenarios.

And yet they think it anyway: and that's the problem!

Don't let your imagination run wild. If you don't know what to think, don't start with the default assumption that something terrible must be going on that you don't know about.

Cyrus - you're still doing it. In that response to my post, you still equated things that were not equivalent. Ie, prohibiting money transfers to the ME is not equivalent to outlawing business ownership by Muslims.

 

[ComputerGeek]

And yet they think it anyway: and that's the problem!
Don't let your imagination run wild. If you don't know what to think, don't start with the default assumption that something terrible must be going on that you don't know about.

It is better to be paranoid about the secrets the government is keeping than it is to wear rose colored glasses.

The wire tapping issue is especially horrendous for civil liberties. The way the republicans are acting towards Bush , I think he could kill some one in his office and the republicans (the partizan ones) would defend him.

Where are the Republicans or the Watergate era? They had the guts to begin serious investigations and they even wrote up articles of impeachment.

 

[SOS2008]

Members may recall the original thread I started on this topic, in which I spent many hours doing research on Bush and his life, documenting his lack of achievement and poor character. I agree Bush is not the first president to lie or break the law, but he out-strips his predecessors by a long shot. It is, and should be of alarm to the American people, and not dismissed as “they all do it, so why bother.”

I really wish this current thread could be linked back to my original thread so it doesn’t have to be re-hashed over and over again. Most of the items discussed are known to be fact (lying about his D.U.I. and doing drugs, etc). I doubt any other president before him has had such a poor background and questionable rise to power—this before all that has transpired since. When what is said about him is the truth, it isn’t liable or “bashing.”

The damage caused to our country is immeasurable, but surely immense. The thread was and continues to be entitled with purpose of documenting the regular flow of propaganda and misdeeds. IMHO enough can’t be done to counteract the current trends that he has led and exemplifies. If people don’t want to hear the truth, they don’t have to read or participate in the thread.