How to find specific volume given temperature?

Click For Summary

Homework Help Overview

The discussion revolves around finding specific volume given temperature and pressure, particularly in the context of superheated and subcooled states of a refrigerant. Participants are exploring the use of tables and interpolation methods to derive values, while questioning the availability of certain data in standard references.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Assumption checking, Problem interpretation

Approaches and Questions Raised

  • Participants discuss the necessity of using tables for specific volume and density, questioning whether values can be derived without them. There is mention of interpolating values when direct data is not available, and the implications of assuming linear behavior in vapor properties.

Discussion Status

Some participants have provided guidance on the need for interpolation and the importance of using the correct parameters (like Pv) for accurate results. There is an ongoing exploration of how to handle subcooled liquids and the availability of relevant tables.

Contextual Notes

Participants note the challenge of finding specific values in tables, particularly for pressures and conditions that may not be explicitly listed. There is also a reference to the need for careful attention to detail in calculations, as mistakes in pressure values have been acknowledged.

EastWindBreaks
Messages
128
Reaction score
3

Homework Statement



upload_2017-12-8_6-47-3.png

upload_2017-12-8_6-47-27.png

Homework Equations


upload_2017-12-8_6-57-34.png


The Attempt at a Solution


upload_2017-12-8_6-47-59.png

I don't understand how the solution got its values, not from the tables right? because I couldn't find such value from all of the tables. Since the pressure is less than the saturated pressure at given temperature, it is in super heated phase. but 90.4 kpa equals 13.1 psia, which is not in the super heated table. can we calculate specific volume without the tables? can we find its volume by finding the density at given temperature and pressure since the mass is known? but which would also require a table to find such density...
 

Attachments

  • upload_2017-12-8_6-47-3.png
    upload_2017-12-8_6-47-3.png
    5.9 KB · Views: 3,425
  • upload_2017-12-8_6-47-27.png
    upload_2017-12-8_6-47-27.png
    7 KB · Views: 8,703
  • upload_2017-12-8_6-47-59.png
    upload_2017-12-8_6-47-59.png
    80.6 KB · Views: 3,360
  • upload_2017-12-8_6-57-34.png
    upload_2017-12-8_6-57-34.png
    73 KB · Views: 3,373
Physics news on Phys.org
Your book (Moran et al) also has a table in metric units, doesn't it?
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: EastWindBreaks

Attachments

  • upload_2017-12-8_8-30-59.png
    upload_2017-12-8_8-30-59.png
    43 KB · Views: 3,305
EastWindBreaks said:
Thank you, I found the SI system tables, but i still don't see 0.2302, it is in this region correct? View attachment 216340
where P= 0.10 MPa
Yes. You have to interpolate in the table. Since the behavior is close to ideal gas behavior (with Pv nearly constant), for good accuracy, you should interpolate on (Pv) rather than simply on v.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: EastWindBreaks
Chestermiller said:
Yes. You have to interpolate in the table. Since the behavior is close to ideal gas behavior (with Pv nearly constant), for good accuracy, you should interpolate on (Pv) rather than simply on v.
BvU said:

got it, so we have to do linear interpolate (assume the trend is linear?) for vapors when the table doesn't have the value we want, and we use quality(
upload_2017-12-10_21-46-25.png
)to find the properties for saturated state where the temperature and pressure are dependent on each other. Do we use
upload_2017-12-10_21-46-51.png
to find properties of sub cooled liquid as well? since I did not find a table for sub-cooled liquid.
 

Attachments

  • upload_2017-12-10_21-46-16.png
    upload_2017-12-10_21-46-16.png
    1.1 KB · Views: 767
  • upload_2017-12-10_21-46-25.png
    upload_2017-12-10_21-46-25.png
    1.1 KB · Views: 2,569
  • upload_2017-12-10_21-46-51.png
    upload_2017-12-10_21-46-51.png
    1.1 KB · Views: 2,563
EastWindBreaks said:
got it, so we have to do linear interpolate (assume the trend is linear?) for vapors when the table doesn't have the value we want, and we use quality(View attachment 216469 )to find the properties for saturated state where the temperature and pressure are dependent on each other. Do we use View attachment 216470 to find properties of sub cooled liquid as well? since I did not find a table for sub-cooled liquid.
You should be able to find the tabulated values of sub cooled liquid in your tables (sometimes called pressurized liquids).

I also point out again that, unless you interpolate on Pv rather than v, you will not get an accurate answer for the interpolated v. I guarantee that you linear interpolation will not deliver 0.2303.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: EastWindBreaks
Chestermiller said:
You should be able to find the tabulated values of sub cooled liquid in your tables (sometimes called pressurized liquids).

I also point out again that, unless you interpolate on Pv rather than v, you will not get an accurate answer for the interpolated v. I guarantee that you linear interpolation will not deliver 0.2303.

Thank you, now I understand what you said about Pv being nearly constant. I just want to confirm, you said interpolate on Pv, you mean like this?:
upload_2017-12-11_0-59-35.png

I got v= 0.2326, a little off from 0.2302.
 

Attachments

  • upload_2017-12-11_0-59-35.png
    upload_2017-12-11_0-59-35.png
    76.2 KB · Views: 2,209
At P= 60000 Pa, v = 0.35048 m^3/kg, and Pv = 21029 J/kg

At P = 100000 Pa, v = 0.20743 m^3/kg, and Pv = 20743 J/kg

So, at P = 90400 Pa, $$Pv=21029+\frac{(90400-60000)}{(100000-60000}(20743-21029)=20812$$ And, ##v=20812/90400=0.2302## m^3/kg.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: EastWindBreaks
  • #10
Chestermiller said:
At P= 60000 Pa, v = 0.35048 m^3/kg, and Pv = 21029 J/kg

At P = 100000 Pa, v = 0.20743 m^3/kg, and Pv = 20743 J/kg

So, at P = 90400 Pa, $$Pv=21029+\frac{(90400-60000)}{(100000-60000}(20743-21029)=20812$$ And, ##v=20812/90400=0.2302## m^3/kg.

Thanks a lot! I am so careless, I made a mistake by using P2= 0.14 Mpa instead of 0.1 Mpa.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
Replies
9
Views
4K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
Replies
20
Views
4K
Replies
15
Views
2K
Replies
5
Views
5K
  • · Replies 16 ·
Replies
16
Views
3K
Replies
2
Views
2K
Replies
6
Views
2K