News In memory: Rachel Corrie (1979 - 2003)

[Bilal]

Two years ago , An Israeli army bulldozer crushed Rachel Corrie as she tried to stop the demolition of a Palestinian home.

((Friday, March 18, 2005

Corrie family seeks answers at hearing

ELLYN FERGUSON

GANNETT NEWS SERVICE

WASHINGTON -- The family of Rachel Corrie continued Thursday to press for a more thorough investigation into the 2003 death of The Evergreen State College student in the Gaza Strip. ))

Website of Rachel

http://www.rachelcorrie.org/

last minutes before death of Rachel with pictures:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Corrie

Last emial of RACHEL:
((February 7 2003

Hi friends and family, and others,

I have been in Palestine for two weeks and one hour now, and I still have very few words to describe what I see. It is most difficult for me to think about what's going on here when I sit down to write back to the United States. Something about the virtual portal into luxury. I don't know if many of the children here have ever existed without tank-shell holes in their walls and the towers of an occupying army surveying them constantly from the near horizons. I think, although I'm not entirely sure, that even the smallest of these children understand that life is not like this everywhere. An eight-year-old was shot and killed by an Israeli tank two days before I got here, and many of the children murmur his name to me - Ali - or point at the posters of him on the walls. The children also love to get me to practice my limited Arabic by asking me, "Kaif Sharon?" "Kaif Bush?" and they laugh when I say, "Bush Majnoon", "Sharon Majnoon" back in my limited arabic. (How is Sharon? How is Bush? Bush is crazy. Sharon is crazy.) Of course this isn't quite what I believe, and some of the adults who have the English correct me: "Bush mish Majnoon" ... Bush is a businessman. Today I tried to learn to say, "Bush is a tool", but I don't think it translated quite right. But anyway, there are eight-year-olds here much more aware of the workings of the global power structure than I was just a few years ago. ))

 

[Bilal]

The Death of Rachel Corrie
David Rovics


When she sat down in the dirt
In front of your machine
A lovely woman dressed in red
You in military green
If you had met her in Jerusalem
You might have asked her on a date
But here you were in Gaza
Rolling towards the gate

As your foot went to the floor
Did you recall her eyes
Did her gaze remind you
That you've become what you despise
As you rolled on towards this woman
And ignored all the shouts to stop
Did you feel a shred of doubt
As you watched her body drop

And as your Caterpillar tracks
Upon her body pressed
With twenty tons of deadly force
Crushed the bones within her chest
Could you feel the contours of her face
As you took her life away
Did you serve your country well
On that cool spring day

And when you went back across the Green Line
Back to the open shore
Did you think that this was just another day
In a dirty war
And when you looked out on the water
Did you feel an empty void
Or was it just one more life you've taken
One more home destroyed

Created March, 2003
Copyright David Rovics 2003, all rights reserved

 

[russ_watters]

We've discussed this before: don't stand in front of a moving buldozer. Its inherrently dangerous.

 

[Dayle Record]

The real epiphany is, don't look for humanity where none exists. There is strength in numbers, fight the good fight, but make it count. The sum of your life's efforts can be great, if you persist, and live your life, and work for the good.

 

[1123581321]

natural selection at work, people. don't stand infront of a very large moving vehicle unless you want to die. In the US the tank would have stopped because of lawyers, but israel is different.

compassion is worthless

Fibonacci

 

[TRCSF]

We've discussed this before: don't stand in front of a moving buldozer. Its inherrently dangerous.

Well sure. You can also say, "don't piss off Roman governors, or they'll nail your ass to the tree," or "don't try to challenge two hundred years of racial segregation or some sniper will shoot your ass" or "don't work in a high rise office building that's already been hit once by terrorists, cause you know they're going to try again," or "don't wear a miniskirt if you don't want to get raped."

It's not like it's the victim's fault.

 

[Hurkyl]

One can also say "Don't jump off a cliff, 'cause landing hurts!", or "Don't run into moving traffic!"

Are those also not the victim's fault?

 

[TRCSF]

One can also say "Don't jump off a cliff, 'cause landing hurts!", or "Don't run into moving traffic!"

Are those also not the victim's fault?

A more appropriate quote would be "don't stand next to a cliff, somebody will push you off" after somebody pushes a person of the cliff.

It's not like Rachel Corrie put the bulldoser in gear and then ran in front of the thing.

 

[Hurkyl]

She still ran out in front of it after it was moving.

 

[TRCSF]

No, it's more like she put herself in front of a moving vehicle.

So did the guy during the Tianamen square massacre. Fortunately the guy who was driving the tank decided not to commit murder.

 

[FredGarvin]

How in the hell is a suit filed against Catepillar going to solve anything? Stupid, stupid girl.

 

[The Rev]

The real epiphany is, don't look for humanity where none exists.

Brilliant.

If only people with compassion could see those without it for what they are, without having to find out the hard way.

\Psi

The Rev

 

[Pengwuino]

Ah yes, throwing away your life for a cause you probably know little about. Wish people would cherish their own lives more then people like this girl do

 

[TRCSF]

Ah yes, throwing away your life for a cause you probably know little about. Wish people would cherish their own lives more then people like this girl do

On the contrary, I presume Rachel Corrie knew quite a bit about what the cause was. I wish people cared as much about other people as Rachel Corrie did.

 

[klusener]

exactly, she cared enough, loved those people so much, and believed in their cause with so much passion that she was willing to die for them...

 

[russ_watters]

So did the guy during the Tianamen square massacre. Fortunately the guy who was driving the tank decided not to commit murder.

That's a word that has a pretty specific legal definition: http://faculty.ncwc.edu/toconnor/293/293lect07.htm

Just to be clear: you are operating under the assumption that the driver purposefully killed her? Do you have any evidence of that?

A buddy of mine was not paying attention one day on a dock (he was in the Navy) and a crane operator lowered an outrigger onto his foot, crushing it. The difference between that and this case is that Rachel Corrie knowingly and purposefully put herself into a situation where her life was at risk, while my buddy just plain wasn't paying attention. Rachel Corrie had complete control over her level of risk and consciously chose to risk her life. Of that, we are certain.

What we don't know for sure is the intent and control of the situation that the driver of the buldozer had. However, in every legal system I'm aware of, until it can be proven that he intended to kill her (murder) or was willfully neglegent in avoiding her (that's not murder, that's homicide), we must assume he did not.

 

[TRCSF]

There's a number of eye witness accounts swearing that the driver was well aware that he was running her over.

So it's their stories versus the driver's.

Given there's no chance of prosecution, even if the guy did in fact murder her, there's no reason to wait for a trial.

 

[Pengwuino]

Did he tell people he knew she was there? My god... that thing is soooooooooooo big, bigger then my damn house.

And id bet my money on her not knowing what she was fighting for and her idea of it being a 'righteous enough cause' to die for being rather wrong. No one can intently look upon the situation between the 2 countries and say anyones side is right enough to give their lives up like that. She really wants to do something about it, go put her body infront of the muzzle of a militants RPG launcher or go protest out of Arafats compound when he was around.

 

[russ_watters]

There's a number of eye witness accounts swearing that the driver was well aware that he was running her over.

So it's their stories versus the driver's.

Given there's no chance of prosecution, even if the guy did in fact murder her, there's no reason to wait for a trial.

Fine - as long as you concede you're making an assumption (though your assumption still doesn't support "murder"). I'll choose to make the opposite one, and there are eyewitness accounts that support it as well. The difference? My assumption has legal standing - yours doesn't. Your assumption absolves Rachel of personal responsibility for her reckless actions. Mine doesn't.

 

[kat]

In honor of "The Other Rachels":

"1. My Name is Rachel Levy (Israeli girl age 17, blown up in a grocery
store)
2. My Name is Rachel Thaler (Israeli girl aged 16, blown up in a pizzeria)
3. My Name is Rachel Levi (Israeli girl aged 19, murdered while waiting
for the bus)
4. My Name is Rachel Gavish (killed with her husband and son while at
home)
5. My Name is Rachel Charhi (blown up while sitting in a cafe)
6. My Name is Rachel Shabo (murdered with her three sons aged 5, 13 and 6
while sitting at home)
"
(From Tom Gross)

 

[Burnsys]

You can also say: Dont stay inside of your own house if it is going to be buldozed by the IDF...
Or don't stay in your own house if you are a jew and you are in the nazi germany. couse you are going to be taken to the gas chamber...

http://www.jewsrenounce.org/bulldozer.gif

 

[Bilal]

Dear Kat, I will divide my answer into two parts:

You mentioned those Israeli victims, but who forced them to live in illegal militant settlements in occupied land, which are legal target for resistance according to international laws? If you go to live in Falluja and rise American flag in your flat with poster ‘’death for Iraqi’’ then you are responsible about any harm of you and your family? Israel is using those civilians as ‘’human shield’’ in the illegal settlement by offering low price flat with no tax.

Compare with those who justifying murdering of Rachel (peace activist) who stay legally in Gaza and those illegal settlers , who decided to live with weapons in hostile environment to steal the land and the resources of the people of WB and Gaza.

1. Rachel Thaler, from Ginot Shomron (illegal settlement in West Bank; her parents should not let her to live illegally among extremist Jews militants who want to kill the Palestinian and to steal their lands!)

2. Racheli Levi has been killed on Wednesday, February 14th 2001 by a Palestinian bus driver The bus attack killed 8 people :
7 soldiers and 1 civilian. (She should not stand among the solider in battlefield (occupied land)
http://vassilovski.com/harpaz/racheli/poems/poems/about.html

3. Rachel Levy; killed in Kiryat Hyoval (illegal settlement in East Jerusalem!)

4. Rachel Gavish : From Elon Morieh (Illegal settlement near Nablus! )

5. Rachel Charhi : Tel Aviv
6. Rachel Shabo : From Itmar ( illegal settlement which is center of Jews terrorist near Nablus !)

This means , the Palestinian only responsible about death of Rachel Charhi in Tel Aviv, while 5 Rachels are put into ‘’illegal settlements among Jews militants who aim to kill the Palestinian. Those 5 Rcahels are victims of Israeli government who send them to live in the occupied land!

In honor of "The Other Rachels":

"1. My Name is Rachel Levy (Israeli girl age 17, blown up in a grocery
store)
2. My Name is Rachel Thaler (Israeli girl aged 16, blown up in a pizzeria)
3. My Name is Rachel Levi (Israeli girl aged 19, murdered while waiting
for the bus)
4. My Name is Rachel Gavish (killed with her husband and son while at
home)
5. My Name is Rachel Charhi (blown up while sitting in a cafe)
6. My Name is Rachel Shabo (murdered with her three sons aged 5, 13 and 6
while sitting at home)
"
(From Tom Gross)

 

[Bilal]

Those who have little knowledge about Jews illegal squatters in WB and Gaza can read these links to see from which communities the 5 Rcahels came:

Example of Jews settelers:

Pictures of settelers stealing the Palestinian olives crops and looking for people to murder:

http://www.palsolidarity.org/portal/alias__Rainbow/lang__en-US/tabID__3442/DesktopDefault.aspx

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baruch_Goldstein
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosque_of_Abraham_massacre

Most of those Jews settelers belong to Kach and Kahane Chai

http://library.nps.navy.mil/home/tgp/kach.htm


Jews setteler child celebrate Burim !

http://www.time.com/time/potw/20040312/6.html

Documentary movie shows Jews settlers planning to plant bombs in primary girls’ Palestinian school in East Jerusalem.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/israel/view/

 

[Bilal]

The last part of my answer should include names of thousands of Palestinian kids and women who murdered by Israeli solids and settlers in last 5 years, but I think everybody knows that Israel murdered dozen of Palestinian for every Jews victim.

This means for every Jews Rachel, there are many Palestinian Fatima murdered with no reason!

Unless Mrs. Kat does not believe blood of human are equal, especially this is the idea of ultra orthodox Jews who still believe in the myth of ''god chosen nation''.

 

[TRCSF]

Fine - as long as you concede you're making an assumption (though your assumption still doesn't support "murder"). I'll choose to make the opposite one, and there are eyewitness accounts that support it as well. The difference? My assumption has legal standing - yours doesn't. Your assumption absolves Rachel of personal responsibility for her reckless actions. Mine doesn't.

Hmm, yes, Rachel Corrie is guilty of reckless endangerment, meanwhile absolving the driver of second degree murder. Or suicide. Despite not being convicted. That's fine if it's your opinion, but let's not pretend it has any legal or moral standing.

 

[TRCSF]

In honor of "The Other Rachels":

"1. My Name is Rachel Levy (Israeli girl age 17, blown up in a grocery
store)
2. My Name is Rachel Thaler (Israeli girl aged 16, blown up in a pizzeria)
3. My Name is Rachel Levi (Israeli girl aged 19, murdered while waiting
for the bus)
4. My Name is Rachel Gavish (killed with her husband and son while at
home)
5. My Name is Rachel Charhi (blown up while sitting in a cafe)
6. My Name is Rachel Shabo (murdered with her three sons aged 5, 13 and 6
while sitting at home)
"
(From Tom Gross)

And is "Rachel" a popular Palestinian name too?

 

[Pengwuino]

@Bilal

I remember you complaining on a different thread that the attack on Iraq was "illegal" according to "international law". Now really... i would love to hear what these laws are and who is suppose to enforce them because ir eally want to know what organization says declaring war on a nation who attempted to assassinate your leadership is illegal while murdering innocent civilians in settlements is perfectly good and swell?

 

[Burnsys]

@Bilal

I remember you complaining on a different thread that the attack on Iraq was "illegal" according to "international law". Now really... i would love to hear what these laws are and who is suppose to enforce them because ir eally want to know what organization says declaring war on a nation who attempted to assassinate your leadership is illegal while murdering innocent civilians in settlements is perfectly good and swell?

nations do not attempt to asesinate political figures, goverments of nations, inteligence agencies, or military branches do. for example the CIA:

Outlook: Assassination and Foreign Policy
A Senate select committee, after uncovering the history of half a dozen American plots to assassinate foreign leaders
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A36992-2004Apr23.html

US involvement in Foreign assassinations or attempts
-- prohibited by Presidential decree since 1976 --
1976 - Michael Manley, Prime Minister of Jamaica
1980-86 - Moammar Qaddafi, leader of Libya, numerous attempts
1982 - Ayatollah Khomeine, leader of Iran
1983 - General Ahmed Dlimi, Army commander of Morocco
1983 - Miguel d'Escoto, Foreign Minister of Nicaragua
1984 - All nine leaders of the Nicaraguan National Directorate
1985 - Sheikh Mohammed Hussein Fadlallah, Lebanon Shiite leader
1991 - Saddam Hussein, leader of Iraq
1998 - Osama bin Laden, former US trained "freedom fighter".
1999 - Slobodan Mlosevic, President of Yugoslavia
------------------------------------------------

those inocent civilians are not inocent, they are comiting a crime, becouse they are in ilegals settlements, anyway of course they don't deserve the death penalty, but palestinian suicide bombings are mostly directed to idf personal or government oficials, so acording to US Doctrine, those civilians could be called colateral damage. in that case, america has done much much more colateral damage that palestine only in irak...

----------------------------------------------------------

http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20021107-042725-6586r

"We are basically opening up and crafting a new tool and tactic which is not for (the United States) alone to use," Silliman said. "The United States is not the only one that can do this (assasination of foreing leaders). We may be putting our own leadership at risk."

"It is difficult to distinguish what we did in Yemen from what Israel has done with the Palestinians with targeted killings," Silliman told UPI.

As recently as July, White House spokesman Ari Fleischer criticized Israel for launching a "heavy handed" attack that killed Salah Shehadeh, the top commander of Hamas' military wing, Izzadine el-Qassa, in Gaza.

The attack by an F-16 with a single 2,000-lb bomb destroyed four buildings killing 14 others, including nine children, and wounding as many as 100, Palestinian authorities said at the time.

 

[Pengwuino]

Pff, what ever happened to our no-assassination policy. Looks like everyone ignored that.

And i don't see how running into a sinagog (sp?) or a cafe and restaurant full of civilians is exactly directed at any military personel. I don't remember any tanks going up to a nightclub and blowing it to smitherines in iraq or running in and spraying bullets into a movie theatre. But then again supposedly i don't get the whole, factful, unbiased information like those who watch Al Jazeera

Add: I obviously meant the government or more specifically, the military. Obviously every member of a nation isn't running after leaders attempting to kill them. I figured it was assumed what i meant.

 

[sid_galt]

Those who have little knowledge about Jews illegal squatters in WB and Gaza can read these links to see from which communities the 5 Rcahels came:

Example of Jews settelers:

Pictures of settelers stealing the Palestinian olives crops and looking for people to murder:

http://www.palsolidarity.org/portal/alias__Rainbow/lang__en-US/tabID__3442/DesktopDefault.aspx

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baruch_Goldstein
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosque_of_Abraham_massacre

Most of those Jews settelers belong to Kach and Kahane Chai

http://library.nps.navy.mil/home/tgp/kach.htm


Jews setteler child celebrate Burim !

http://www.time.com/time/potw/20040312/6.html

Documentary movie shows Jews settlers planning to plant bombs in primary girls’ Palestinian school in East Jerusalem.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/israel/view/

I will only responsd to these with this

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/pal-child-abuse/

 

[stoned]

instead of giving them 3 billions $ a year we should send them this.

 

[sid_galt]

2. Racheli Levi has been killed on Wednesday, February 14th 2001 by a Palestinian bus driver The bus attack killed 8 people :
7 soldiers and 1 civilian. (She should not stand among the solider in battlefield (occupied land)
http://vassilovski.com/harpaz/racheli/poems/poems/about.html

So Racheli Levi cannot stand in a battlefield and is responsible for her death but Rachel Corrie has full rights to stand infront of a moving bulldozer, is absolved of all responsibility and is a goddess?

Edit: Levi was not standing in a battlefield. She was just WAITING for a bus. Waiting for a bus with a few soldiers around is not equal to standing in a battlefield.

 

[Hurkyl]

Wow, I don't think I've ever seen the double-standard demonstrated this clearly before!

 

[sid_galt]

This means , the Palestinian only responsible about death of Rachel Charhi in Tel Aviv, while 5 Rachels are put into ‘’illegal settlements among Jews militants who aim to kill the Palestinian. Those 5 Rcahels are victims of Israeli government who send them to live in the occupied land!

Do you know the meaning of free will and freedom?

All the Rachels here CHOSE to be where they are. Neither the Israeli government nor the Palestinian administration force the Rachels to be where they were.

The only difference is that the Israeli Rachels were MURDERED while Rachel Corrie CHOSE to stand in front of a bulldozer and died. Corrie IS responsible for her death. The other Rachels are not.

And then you go on and put Rachel Corrie in the same league as the other Rachels? How?

 

[1123581321]

you want to know what i think?
Let them do their own thing, and stay out.
Know why?
If you do that, then one country (Israel, because their millitary is superior) would run right through the middle east and take care of the problim for the us.
You know what we do next?
Get a line of people with flamethrowers and toarch the place.
Know what then?
Problim solved!

Fibonacci

 

[Bilal]

There are no innocent people in the settlements. They can live in Israel (Haifa, Tel Aviv ...etc) but surely they have no right to live on stolen land and to kill the native people. I wish you check my links again about settlers to see what kind of human are they.

If any American family decided to steal land in Iraq by force and to live there, then they are not innocent, and they responsible about the death of their kids. It is the same situation in WB and Gaza. This is Palestinian land, and the extremist Israeli have no right to steal 80% of water resources and 60% of lands...

It was the same story of France in Algeria, and we know what the fate of French settlers... they left without getting compensation after 130 years of occupation.

I never met my aunt who lives in Israel, just 10 km far from my town, because I am not allowed to travel, to live or to buy land in Israel. So why the Israeli can take the best lands and most water resources in WB and Gaza which are considered by all world countries as Palestinian occupied land?

Jews are welcomed to live in my country (Palestine) as peaceful citizens, the same as Muslims, Christian , non religious, Sumarian Jews ... but they have no right to live as militant racist settlers who want to kick us out of our country to create pure Jews State. I support completely to have one country for all communities with equal rights for all people whatever their religion or race

@Bilal
... while murdering innocent civilians in settlements is perfectly good and swell?

 

[Bilal]

It work also on the other side … see the attached links and pictures of Jews settlers teaching their kids terrorism, hate and how to steal the houses and lands of Palestinian.

In religious Jews schools of settlers, the children of primary schools should join camps to learn how to use the different types of weapons and how to kill the Palestinian.

I know there is some silly Palestinian in Gaza trying to teach the children how to use guns, but here are two major differences between them and the settlers:

1- Settlers teach their kids how to kill the Palestinian and to clean what called ‘’the biblical Jews Land” from the non Jews ‘’Goyim’’, while the Palestinian teach their kids how to protect the lands of their fathers and their lives from the invaders.

2- During Israeli invasion of Lebanon in 1982, 20000 Lebanese and Palestinian civilians were killed by the Israeli and their Lebanese alliance. Only the kids who trained how to use RPG and guns are saved, while the kids who joined the school to learn music and songs are murdered like sheep. All these crimes got complete support of USA. Therefore if you live in jungle world you should teach your kids how to protect their lives from human wolves.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1395080.stm

Pictures of Jews settelers teaching their kids terrorism:

http://www.world-crisis.com/images/uploads/israeli_settlers_1.jpg

http://www.msn.co.il/pidl/1298484/settelers_N.jpg

http://www.rcnv.org/gaza/photos%20for%20web/graffitti%20in%20Hebron-%20KILL%20ARABS%20(8-13-03).jpg

I will only responsd to these with this

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/pal-child-abuse/

 

[Bilal]

Personally, I am sad for the death of any human in this tragedy conflict but we have to present the different views instead of brainwashing by media.

It is clear that bus driver goal is to kill the 7 occupation soldiers, but they shot him and he lost control on his bus , so how we know whether he means to kill this women or just because he lost control? The bus continued moving after his death, which mean there are possibility that this women died after the driver?

The Bulldozer driver was not under attack... He just did not care about few stupid people defending the poor Palestinian family!

Examples of Israeli Bulldozers crimes:


Important links:


http://www.commondreams.org/cgi-bin/print.cgi?file=/headlines02/1203-03.htm

Family Tells How Israelis Buried Deaf Father Alive

((Beside the pile of flattened concrete, all that was left of his home, Maher Salem described yesterday how his 68-year-old father was killed when the Israeli army demolished the house on top of him. When he found his father, Mr Salem said, the old man's head was "like a bar of chocolate, it was only two centimetres thick".))

((It would not be the first time claims of this sort turned out to be true: in Nablus in April, eight members of a single family died when a soldier bulldozed their house on top of them. Their bodies were found, and the case has been well documented by international human rights groups.))
IOF buries family alive under demolished home
http://www.geocities.com/radicalcalendar/buries.html

So Racheli Levi cannot stand in a battlefield and is responsible for her death but Rachel Corrie has full rights to stand infront of a moving bulldozer, is absolved of all responsibility and is a goddess?

Edit: Levi was not standing in a battlefield. She was just WAITING for a bus. Waiting for a bus with a few soldiers around is not equal to standing in a battlefield.

 

[Hurkyl]

Bilal: let's clarify it. Are you denying that:

There are Palestinians that teach hatred of Jews.
There are Palestinians that teach terrorism.
There are Palestinians that teach how to use weapons to kill Jews.
et cetera.


Fighting in the name of a just cause does make one just. To quote a western phrase: "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions".


I've attended a lecture that claimed that one of the important political and psychological factors in the Middle East is that defending one's homeland is such a sacred thing that many wouldn't even dare to think about criticizing acts done in its name, no matter how evil the act, or how little the act actually relates to homeland defense.

I'm beginning to believe it.

 

[Bilal]

I do not want to repeat 1 million times...
There is Israel on 78% of Historical Palestine
There West Bank and Gaza, which considered “occupied Land” by all world countries (including USA and UN), 22% of historical Palestine
Those Rachels can live in Israel (Haifa, Tel Aviv ... ) the same as you (American) Can live in NY, Texas .. etc, but it is their mistake to live ''illegally'' in occupied Palestinian land to steal the land of Palestinian and to force them to terrorize them (see my links again about settlers!). It is as you (American) take your family with guns to live in Falluja and Baghdad because your army occupy that country!
Rachels have no right to live in Palestine as settlers, but they can live as peaceful Palestinian Jews, which is not the case here!
Differences between Rachel the ‘’American peace activists’’ and Rachesl ‘’the settelers‘’ are :

1) Rachel the American do not hate the Jews (may be she is from Jews origin) , she came to Palestine by (Visa) from the Israeli authority. She is welcomed by Palestinian. This means she had no enemies in Palestine/Israel. Rachel wanted to spread peace between Palestine and Israel. She wants to see the reality on ground instead to here the propaganda and lies in American media. She is friend of every Palestinian and every peace lover Israeli. Her heart broken by death of every Israeli/Palestinian, because they love them as human. She is the sound of conscience of every peace lover.

2) Rachels ‘’the settlers’’, came illegally to live in WB and Gaza, most of them are members in Jews terrorists groups (Kach and Kahana Hai) . These groups killed Rabin (former Israeli PM) and responsible about daily crimes in Palestine. The goal of these Rachels is to force the non Jews to immigrate and to steal their houses and land. They and their cousins are usually have weapons to kill the Palestinian and to destroy their crops. They are not welcomed by Palestinian, not because they are Jews, but because they want to ‘’annihilate’’ them!

Do you know the meaning of free will and freedom?

All the Rachels here CHOSE to be where they are. Neither the Israeli government nor the Palestinian administration force the Rachels to be where they were.

The only difference is that the Israeli Rachels were MURDERED while Rachel Corrie CHOSE to stand in front of a bulldozer and died. Corrie IS responsible for her death. The other Rachels are not.

And then you go on and put Rachel Corrie in the same league as the other Rachels? How?

 

[Bilal]

Israel is tiny country, and Henry Kissinger (former American Jews Minister) : Israel can not survive more than 6 months without the help of USA!
Israel can not involve in nuclear or chemical war, because small nuke is enough to end them.

USA who working hard for Israel by destroying Iraq and making pressure and siege on Iran and Syria ...

This is the reason why USA is hated in ME, because all Israeli crimes and the ''ethic cleansing'' of Palestinian people are done by American military/politically/financially/diplomatically support.
We are not jealous from American freedom, but we reject the crimes of and the aggression of your politician in last several decades..

you want to know what i think?
Let them do their own thing, and stay out.
Know why?
If you do that, then one country (Israel, because their millitary is superior) would run right through the middle east and take care of the problim for the us.
You know what we do next?
Get a line of people with flamethrowers and toarch the place.
Know what then?
Problim solved!

Fibonacci

 

[Bilal]

FIRST:

Are you denying that:

There are Jews that teach hatred of Palestinian.
There are Jews that teach terrorism.
There are Jews that teach how to use weapons to kill Palestinian.
et cetera.
**********************************************************
SECOND:

Could you ask the Jews why they teach their kids to hate the NAZI German?
Could you ask the ''Red Indian'' why they do not like ''Cowboys''?
Could you ask the Afro American why they are not proud by those who brought their families to work in cotton farms?

**********************************************************
THIRD

Hate exist in both societies, the difference that Israeli hate is build on ''myth'' of superior Jews and savages Palestinian , while the Palestinian anger based on the fact that those ''strangers'' invaded their homeland and kicked 60% of Palestinian homes to establish ‘’Jews Ghetto State ’’ , then they occupied the rest of Palestine and they continue their daily crimes since decades.

We did not go to Poland, Germany, NY , Holland ... to kill the Zionists. We did not burn 6 Millions Jews in 2WW, but they came to our land to steal it and create ''Jews homeland'' based on, biblical myth and racist superiority!
they lived 2000 ago on part of Palestine, but if we should accept to be enough reason to kick the Palestinian out of their country, then America should not be exist also, and most of world countries! Because another nations lived there 2000 years ago!

Palestinian are nation from Muslims, Christian, Jews, non religious... they are not just ''religious'' group who want to create ''Ghetto State'' in ME by murdering another people who lived hundreds of years in their homeland!
Palestinian do not hate Jews because they are Jews , but because they are racist Zionist who wanted to destroy us.

Bilal: let's clarify it. Are you denying that:

There are Palestinians that teach hatred of Jews.
There are Palestinians that teach terrorism.
There are Palestinians that teach how to use weapons to kill Jews.
et cetera.


Fighting in the name of a just cause does make one just. To quote a western phrase: "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions".


I've attended a lecture that claimed that one of the important political and psychological factors in the Middle East is that defending one's homeland is such a sacred thing that many wouldn't even dare to think about criticizing acts done in its name, no matter how evil the act, or how little the act actually relates to homeland defense.

I'm beginning to believe it.

 

[Hurkyl]

There are Jews that teach hatred of Palestinian.
There are Jews that teach terrorism.
There are Jews that teach how to use weapons to kill Palestinian.

I neither confirm nor deny these statements. It would surprise me if they were false, though.


Now, I'll ask you again. Are you denying that:

There are Palestinians that teach hatred of Jews.
There are Palestinians that teach terrorism.
There are Palestinians that teach how to use weapons to kill Jews.
et cetera.

 

[Bilal]

I believe in every nation you find some crazy people with extremist idea? There are 9 millions Palestinian, we could have several thousands crazy people as in America, or any other country. I did not hear about ‘’Nation of peace angles!’’

I will answer honestly from my personal experience:

Now, I'll ask you again. Are you denying that:

There are Palestinians that teach hatred of Jews..

No need to teach them hatred of Jews, we used to see the Jews in our streets every day mistreating people, hitting our parent, teachers, shooting at houses for no reason , shouting ‘’death for Palestinian “ since we were kids. Of course our parents used to tell us those are called Jews. Sometimes we think that Jews is kind of ''savage group'' whom know nothing except killing others based on what we see.

In 1967, the Zionists destroyed my town and gave 1 hour to all people to leave … after that they murdered all the people they found in the town. Then they changed the name of the town and rebuild new Jews settlements after destruction of all historical sites (Roman Castle and Ottoman Palaces) … Due to the spread of diseases among the refugees, UN made pressure on Israel. They returned back after 80 days of miserable life. They found their town (5000 years old) removed from the surface of the earth!)
May be I am lucky that my family succeeded to return back, but there are 530 Palestinian towns not exist anymore, even they removed them from Atlas and history books.

It was sad situation but unavoidable ... t we had peaceful Jews friends and we used to play with their kids also ... so we used to think that there are good and bad Jews.

There are Palestinians that teach terrorism.

Define the ''terrorism'' , if you call defending your homeland and your nation is terrorism , then the answer ''YES'', but if you define it as targeting civilian for fun , I do not think so ... I did not hear that Palestinian targeting Swedish, Russian, Brazilian ... they targeting the Israeli because of the conflict. End the occupation or give the Palestinian enough weapons, then you will not hear about what you call it ‘’terrorism’’

There are Palestinians that teach how to use weapons to kill Jews.
et cetera.

They used to teach us that Jews are powerful and they can murder all the Palestinian, so they scared us by Jews and asked us to avoid them.

 

[Hurkyl]

I believe in every nation you find some crazy people with extremist idea?

Right -- I believe that too.


Maybe you'll understand my attitude if you keep this fact in mind...

Every time someone mentions the Palestinian extremists, you go off and talk about Palestinians defending themselves, et cetera. It's as if it pains you to admit that there really are crazy Palestinian extremists out there.

Also, you love to talk about the crazy Jewish extremists... but we already know there are crazy Jewish extremists, just as there are crazy extremists from every nation.


This is from where the double-standard accusation comes. You, and many other apologists for the Palestinians love to talk about the crazy Jewish extremists, but never like to talk about the crazy Palestinian extremists. The acceptable topics of discussion are Palestinian acts that aren't extremism, and Jewish acts that are extremism. Any discussion of extremist Palestinian acts are immediately derailed, as are discussions of Jewish acts that aren't extremism.


Even now, you demonstrate this. You even state that you know every nation has its crazy extremists, yet you immediately turn around and effectively answer "no" to each of my three questions.


Onto other things, your testimonials do not affect me either. I know bad things happen. They happen in Palestine, Israel, and everywhere else in the world too. So, when you give your testimonials, you're only telling me something I already know -- you're just putting in details that I didn't already have.

I find this especially irritating, because emotional appeals are a basic propaganda technique.

so we used to think that there are good and bad Jews.

Are you serious about the use of past tense here? As in you do not anymore?

 

[Bilal]

Of course I still do believe there many bad Zionists!
If Sharon got 86% of votes and 61% of Israeli Zionists want to kick us out of our country, then surly there are still many bad people among them.

I pray for them to accept one of these solutions:
1) One democratic State for all people in historical Palestine (Israel + WB +Gaza) which give equal rights for all citizens whatever their religion or race.
2) Split into two States: Jews State for Zionists and Democratic State for the rest (including moderate Jews)


Do you have another proposal? Could you tell me why the Zionist rejects both proposals by Palestinian?

Are you serious about the use of past tense here? As in you do not anymore?

 

[Hurkyl]

I meant my question in the opposite direction -- if you have stopped believing there are good Jews.

 

[1123581321]

I propose a question:
Do you know what happens when two kids fight in school?
From my experience, both of them usually get punished, because both of them usually did something wrong to the other to provoke the fight.
question two:
who made the state of israel?
the U.N.
so then, why do the arabs not attack the U.N., is not the UN at fault?
Israel was attacked from day one, literally, and they fought back, even when the UN turned their back on the state they created. Then UN made this mess,, the UN should fix it. Israel has earned their meager patch of land, and palastine thiers. The way I see it, we all should sit back and let the UN fix it, unlike what the US and friends fixed in bosnia a few years back. As i recall, the UN didn't do a whole lot to help, just let the US do the fighting. Again, the UN let Iraq get out of control, because they passed a lot of resolutions and didn't do jack squat to enforce them.
I ask, what did we learn from this rant?
That we should blame the UN for all our problims.

Fibonacci

P.S. don't forget how the UN ****** up korea.

 

[stoned]

you want to quick solution ? don't send them money !

 

[Bilal]

UN created two States based on the request of UK, USA and USSR...

Israel on 55% of historical Palestine
Palestine on 45 % of historical Palestine

Israel succeeded to get 78% of land in 1948!
There are more than 70 UN resolutions ask Israel to stop building settlements, to let the refugees to return and to withdraw from WB and Gaza, additionally , USA used the VETO 79 times to protect the Israeli crimes in UN.

Why UN can not force Israel to respect these resolutions and to solve the problem as they did with Iraq and Yugoslavia?

The answer: because USA rejects completely to let the UN to make any pressure on Israel. Therefore, the reason that the conflict continue for decades is the American policy who give Israel all possible support to bomb their neighbors and to annihilate the Palestinian in the sake of ‘’Biblical Pure Jews state’’.

In fact this American double standard ; they destroy Iraq and forced Syria to withdraw from Lebanon , also they want to destroy Iran in the name of UN resolutions, while Israel throw in the trash 70 resolutions and nobody can blame them!

Your argument about the history of the conflict is very biased and it will scatter the topic if we have to discuss it here …
Here more information about the question of Palestine in UN:

http://www.un.org/Depts/dpa/qpal/

If you would like , I will provide the text of these resolutions

I propose a question:
Do you know what happens when two kids fight in school?
From my experience, both of them usually get punished, because both of them usually did something wrong to the other to provoke the fight.
question two:
who made the state of israel?
the U.N.
so then, why do the arabs not attack the U.N., is not the UN at fault?
Israel was attacked from day one, literally, and they fought back, even when the UN turned their back on the state they created. Then UN made this mess,, the UN should fix it. Israel has earned their meager patch of land, and palastine thiers. The way I see it, we all should sit back and let the UN fix it, unlike what the US and friends fixed in bosnia a few years back. As i recall, the UN didn't do a whole lot to help, just let the US do the fighting. Again, the UN let Iraq get out of control, because they passed a lot of resolutions and didn't do jack squat to enforce them.
I ask, what did we learn from this rant?
That we should blame the UN for all our problims.

Fibonacci

P.S. don't forget how the UN ****** up korea.