Is Relativity Incorrect? Examining Motion and Perception Evidence

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The discussion centers around the validity of Einstein's theory of relativity, with one participant initially claiming to disprove it through a thought experiment involving synchronized clocks and astronauts. However, after extensive replies, they concede that their argument does not effectively refute relativity. Critics emphasize that the proposed thought experiment lacks real experimental evidence and fails to account for the effects of moving observers. The conversation highlights the necessity of empirical data to challenge established theories, as mere logical reasoning or animations cannot substitute for actual experimentation. Ultimately, the thread reveals a misunderstanding of relativity's principles and the importance of rigorous scientific validation.
  • #91
DrChinese said:
First of all. your statement about the "one and only one midpoint" of 2 expanding spheres is factually incorrect. Spacetime is curved (GR), and even in QM alone there is no such point. Even if it were true - which it is not - what would the significance be of such a point? I am still missing the entire line of reasoning related to this.

You use a theory to disprove the fact of the invariant midpoint of two wave fronts. That doesn't convince me, especially when I see the shaky legs Sr is on regarding simultaneity.

DrChinese said:
Second, you are making a logic error when you assume there is an absolute space and then use this to attempt to disprove SR (this tautology has been pointed out to you previously by others).

I do not assume as absolute space. You are misquoting me or misstating me, or I wrote poorly. I attempted to make the point that the invariance of midpoints of moving wave fronts provides a mechanism of determining an absolute space, or locations in space in general, trillions to the trilion power of such points. If the "midpoint theory" happens to conicide with physical fact, then what is the tautology of using this against SR? I probably stepped over the line a time or two , but my point has been primarily focussed on the question of simultaneity as expressed by SR. If the midpoint theory is true then nothing need be said regarding SR, it is just one of those instances where res ipsa loquitor.

DrChinese said:
And third, my "obsession with observers" is firmly grounded in the philosophy of an objective science. So don't expect that I will see your criticism as such.

The "firmness" of your [the SR theoretical industry's] grounding in objective science is at issue, it is the issue. You are being forgetfull of the thread we are involved in. You are familiar with the cousin of thii point seen in the debates of QM where some have argued, 'the wave function collapses when measured by a conscious being'? Talk about observational egotism!

DrChinese said:
You didn't address it, so I assume you are now in agreement with my A. point: that an observer cannot determine the source point of photons detected.

If that is the only infromation available then the source of the photon is unknown and effectively unknowable, almost reaching the state of nonlocality.
 
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  • #92
Doc Al I - used a statement you made when I posted a reply to DrChinese and also referred to a thread, "The question of simultaneity" in the "Relativity Forum" authored by Icky. You and I were participants in that thread..
geistkiesel
 
  • #93
geistkiesel said:
You have proved my point. Yes simultaneity is an objective fact. You are saying the rea;ity is what the observer perceives. I say the reality is independent of what obsevers perceive.
So let me get this straight. You're basically saying: "Reality" is whatever you declare it to be, regardless of observations, measurements, etc.

Sorry, but that's a perfect definition of fantasy, not reality. Physics is concerned with what one can: measure, observe, experience, test.
 
  • #94
If you haven't been following this thread the discussion point revolves around the perceptions of observers being different for obserservers in different frames. It has claimed that SR says what is simultaneous for an observer in a stationary frame is different [or may be different] than that perceived by a moving observer, or from my position I distinguish between perceptions and physical events.

The thing is, Einstein gives an operational definition of terms. For example, there are procedures that can physically performed to identify something that SR calls "simultaneity in a given reference frame". SR's conclusions are certainly physicially meaningful, though you may disagree with the words chosen for them (such as "simultaneous").



The problem I'm having with your ideas is that there doesn't seem to be any way to actually determine whether two things are simultaneous; you describe it as if it is something one just knows.
 
  • #95
geistkiesel said:
A stationary observers triggers two light sources equidistant from M. The light pulses arrive at M simultaneously. Hence the lights were pulsed on simultaneously.

If the only measurement of an observer is the simultaneous arrival of light pulses at some point M, then the only thing that may be concluded is that M is the midpoint between two wave frionts, with nothing said about the location or sequence of pulses of the sources.

geistkiesel,

It is getting frustrating because the words mean something entirely different to you than to others. For example, the statements you made above do not define a "midpoint" under any type of spacetime that I am familiar with - classical or Einsteinian. This is why I keep trying to pin down a specific example to discuss. If you do not want to discuss a specific example that we can all understand, please say so.

2 spheres in 3 space intersect at zero, one or an infinite number of points, depending on their relative size and position. This is true whether or not the spheres are equal in size. In your example above, you mention a point M which is equidistant from two photon sources. There are an infinite number of such points in classical 3 space.

Questions:

a) Is the observer in your example located at M?
b) And is M intended to represent a point equidistant from the photon sources, with distance to iM set as a minimum?
c) What significance is the point M to determining whether SR is a good theory?
d) How does an observer at M determine the distance to the photon sources is equal?
e) Why do you refer to the light sources as pulses? Is there is significance to this language? Is there some reason not to use the term "photons" so we know what you are referring to specifically?

-DrC
 
  • #96
geistkiesel said:
I do not assume as absolute space. You are misquoting me or misstating me, or I wrote poorly.

Well, you said:

"The statement regarding the midpoint of expanding EM spheres was intended to demonstrate the existenxcce of an absolute space."

-and-

"Reference to absolute space and time: For the case of two moving wave fronts existing in the universe, do you agree that all observers in all platforms will determine the location of one and only one midpoint of those expanding EM spheres? and that everyone will determine the exact same location of that midpoint? The midpoint cannot drift unless the wave fronts drift, which would mean that the wave front velocity is variant,which would mean tha 'c' varies. Do you want to do this?

There can be only one collision of the wave fronts at the same place and time, universally.

I conclude for the purposes of this duiscussion that we have found a satisfactory absolute space."

So perhaps you can see my confusion. I don't know of any experiment which has ever indicated an absolute reference frame. There are plenty that are done every day in which local coordinates are used. So I am trying to determine what role - if any - absolute space figures into your critique of SR. Is it critical to your example(s)? If not, fine, that will make our discussion simpler.
 
  • #97
DrChinese said:
Well, you said:

"The statement regarding the midpoint of expanding EM spheres was intended to demonstrate the existenxcce of an absolute space."

-and-

"Reference to absolute space and time: For the case of two moving wave fronts existing in the universe, do you agree that all observers in all platforms will determine the location of one and only one midpoint of those expanding EM spheres? and that everyone will determine the exact same location of that midpoint? The midpoint cannot drift unless the wave fronts drift, which would mean that the wave front velocity is variant,which would mean tha 'c' varies. Do you want to do this?

There can be only one collision of the wave fronts at the same place and time, universally.

I conclude for the purposes of this duiscussion that we have found a satisfactory absolute space."

So perhaps you can see my confusion. I don't know of any experiment which has ever indicated an absolute reference frame. There are plenty that are done every day in which local coordinates are used. So I am trying to determine what role - if any - absolute space figures into your critique of SR. Is it critical to your example(s)? If not, fine, that will make our discussion simpler.

Good question DrChinese. I was merely answering the claim that there is no "absolute space", by constructing a space that is absolute, theoretically speaking. Consider the number of "midpoints" that dot the universe. The difficulty in mesurement is moe a problem in engineering. Other than in my links I haven't pressed the issue, and even in the links, the issue wasn't discussed in those terms you've just amplified.

Take a look at the links. I think you will find that the moving observer can make all the calculations using his own frame of reference in order to determine if the pulsed light sequences were simultaneous to him, he only just crossing the midpoint of the stationary frame. when the lights pulsed. The examples of the moving observers all meeting at the midpoint differs from one of my link hypotheiticals that used AE's example in the dog eared relativity book.So I'll get a new copy.
 
  • #98
Midpoint of expanding EM spheres.

DrChinese said:
geistkiesel,

It is getting frustrating because the words mean something entirely different to you than to others. For example, the statements you made above do not define a "midpoint" under any type of spacetime that I am familiar with - classical or Einsteinian. This is why I keep trying to pin down a specific example to discuss. If you do not want to discuss a specific example that we can all understand, please say so.

2 spheres in 3 space intersect at zero, one or an infinite number of points, depending on their relative size and position. This is true whether or not the spheres are equal in size. In your example above, you mention a point M which is equidistant from two photon sources. There are an infinite number of such points in classical 3 space.

Questions:

a) Is the observer in your example located at M?
b) And is M intended to represent a point equidistant from the photon sources, with distance to iM set as a minimum?
c) What significance is the point M to determining whether SR is a good theory?
d) How does an observer at M determine the distance to the photon sources is equal?
e) Why do you refer to the light sources as pulses? Is there is significance to this language? Is there some reason not to use the term "photons" so we know what you are referring to specifically?

-DrC

A. I am constructing a theoretical midpoint that is invariant, that is all. Any two wave fronts, wherever located and unrelated to the technical or reasonable ability to measure the situation have a midpoint that is invariant. If the concept is new to you, well then join the club, becaue it is new to me also, but coneptually and physically the description should hold. Do you see a flaw? Applying the description to our hypotheticals is reasonable. Look at my links again , I make much of this in cocnstructing the method for determining whether the photons were emtited simultaneosly.

B. If I understand you yes. The midpoint can be of the type we have been discussing in our hypotheticals, or on the grander scale of simultaneously or even nonsimultaneously errupting supernovae. Liike I mentioned, an expanding wave front chugging along for a million years has a huge number of midpoints between itself and all the other wave fronts in the universe. When a new pulse (photon) comes along, for any reason, another midpoint between the new wave front and the ancient is established.

C. In the hypotheticals we have been discussing, the midpoint is everything. For instance I argued in a previous thread to someone claiming one of the lights had to be pulsed on earlier than the other that he could be correct up to a point. Without any information locating a source, then the wave front is all that matters and that wave fronts could have been pulsed on at any time. I have not expressly used the used the term 'absolute space' in any argument that I recall, and only offered the concept here that under the conditions that the construct of the 'midpoint system' is an effective absolute space, then if SR denies the concept of absolute space SR would would be defective for that reson, right? You and I are debating an issue. You make a statement, any statement, denying the physical reality of 'absolute space'. I take this as meaning you are jusifying SR or something of which I am completely ignorant, but at least I was able to blunt the claim of any making the habitual claim of the lack of an ' absolute sapce' . OK I may have been in the dark, but so what? If one of an infinite number of inebriated Peruvian llamas suddenly handed us a single piece of paper with all the issues laid to rest with all the ambiguities, would you deny using the llama paper, just because it came from a llama?, an inebriated llama at that? or would the truth of the matter be sufficient?

D. Without some information other than the detection of the photons all the observer can determine is the point of collision, that we have been referring to as the "midpoint", can only be determined with certainty as the midpoint of the oncoming wave front originating from the sources wherever located.
In a hypothetical where the moving ovserver passes he midpoint just as the light sources are pulsed on and subsequently measuring the oncoming light then the light from the rear the observer can determine if the "midpoint" he crossed is the midpoint of the sources (because that is a given,) of light, but his information is restricted to the midpoint of the colliding wave fronts. Do you follow what I am saying? The moving observer, knowing his velocity and the fact he zeroed his timer when crossing the midpoint can determine if the subsequent pulses (photons) were emitted simultaneously, this moving observer can only do this with respect to (analysis of) the wave fronts of the emitted lights, each wave front moving at equal velocities and each wave front is located equidistant from the midpoint from the instant the pulses (photons) were turned on.

e. No there isn't any reason I cannot use 'photon' in place of 'pulse'. Was this terminology that confusing?
 
  • #99
Doc Al said:
So let me get this straight. You're basically saying: "Reality" is whatever you declare it to be, regardless of observations, measurements, etc.

Sorry, but that's a perfect definition of fantasy, not reality. Physics is concerned with what one can: measure, observe, experience, test.

No, you are missing the point. A simultaneous event say in a stationary frame is physically simultaneous everywhere in the universe, and if your perceptions, weighted as they are by some theory that says you can perceive something different and that 'different' is claimed as a physical reality then you are accepting fantasy as reality.

And since you are here take a look at this link for a sense of the value of measurement I place on events.http://frontiernet.net/~geistkiesel/index_files/

Two moving observers are approaching the mid point of two pulses of light emitted simultaneously in the stationary frame. One post argued that each of them using SR determines that the light behind them was turned on first. This was offeered to me for what reason I am unable to determine, but giving each observer a piece of theoretically fabircated nonsense, contrary to the stationary reality in the stationay frame such as I just decribed is silly.

Let me guess, you are going to respond that no, it is I who am silly right?, or something like this? right?

Your post doesn't have a lot of simultaneity concepts vis a vis SR, if any, are you just jumping in here for the fun if it, or did you just intend to distract the thread by some stupid inference assigned to me that I never made?
 
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  • #100
Hurkyl said:
The thing is, Einstein gives an operational definition of terms. For example, there are procedures that can physically performed to identify something that SR calls "simultaneity in a given reference frame". SR's conclusions are certainly physicially meaningful, though you may disagree with the words chosen for them (such as "simultaneous").



The problem I'm having with your ideas is that there doesn't seem to be any way to actually determine whether two things are simultaneous; you describe it as if it is something one just knows.

I don't see how you could have missed the link I have been placing here and there if you have been following this thread as you say.

Let me make it trivially easy for you to determine if two events are simultaneous, where some have informed me SR says it can't be done.

http://frontiernet.net/~geistkiesel/index_files/
 
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  • #101
Simple simultaneity example drawn from a random webpage.

DrChinese - I found this example of a discussion on simultaneity on the internet. Do you agree with the conclusions and analysis? Explain. It is a faily simple hypothetical.

Do you agree with the conclusion this link?
 
  • #102
Is it just me? or does anyone actually get what those clock shooting out pictures at a constant rate which astronuats see which they then average off ( which is obvious without demonstration they'd be equal) are supposed to prove.

I'm not really sure what ur on about, but i suggest redoing that animation and starting the astronaut being to one of the sides and not in the middle :-/

cuz if he's in the middle of course he will see the light at the same time but if he's on the sides he will see 1 first before the other.

Also the astronauts on the side r seeing like 29 and 30 when the one of the other side is seeing 20 and 39 or wut ever, but they r different even though avged off they may be the same they r still differerent.


i hope at least some people understand me..
 
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  • #103
O = supernova
-> = Light
X = Person
. = space
= = 2 light beams ( just to make this more understandable)



.......X "do de do de do".....
A)O-------->......... <-----------O
......X "oh wow a super nova"...X..." I can see a supernova"




.......X "wow 2 super nova at the same time!"...
B)O-------------------------><----------------------------O
......X "wow that was cool"...X..."that is a cool supernova"



.......X "that was 2 cool supernova"
C)O-----------<========================>------------O
......X "whoa another 1!"...X..."hey look another supernova"



.......X "no they both happened at the same time"
D)O==========================================O
......X .........X.....
"The Super nova on this side happened first"..."No the super nova on this side happened first"


Am i right in showing that diagram thingy ( if you can even read it)
 
  • #104
Gelsamel Epsilon said:
Is it just me? or does anyone actually get what those clock shooting out pictures at a constant rate which astronuats see which they then average off ( which is obvious without demonstration they'd be equal) are supposed to prove.

I'm not really sure what ur on about, but i suggest redoing that animation and starting the astronaut being to one of the sides and not in the middle :-/

cuz if he's in the middle of course he will see the light at the same time but if he's on the sides he will see 1 first before the other.

Also the astronauts on the side r seeing like 29 and 30 when the one of the other side is seeing 20 and 39 or wut ever, but they r different even though avged off they may be the same they r still differerent.


i hope at least some people understand me..

If you would describe the animation and the parameters of the problem as you see it, it may clear things up. I didn't get it. This is not to say you haven't gor valid point, I just didn't get it.
 
  • #105
Gelsamel Epsilon said:
O = supernova
-> = Light
X = Person
. = space
= = 2 light beams ( just to make this more understandable)



.......X "do de do de do".....
A)O-------->......... <-----------O
......X "oh wow a super nova"...X..." I can see a supernova"




.......X "wow 2 super nova at the same time!"...
B)O-------------------------><----------------------------O
......X "wow that was cool"...X..."that is a cool supernova"



.......X "that was 2 cool supernova"
C)O-----------<========================>------------O
......X "whoa another 1!"...X..."hey look another supernova"



.......X "no they both happened at the same time"
D)O==========================================O
......X .........X.....
"The Super nova on this side happened first"..."No the super nova on this side happened first"


Am i right in showing that diagram thingy ( if you can even read it)


I assume the reference to supenovae is directed at the references in some of the previous posts. If so, what are you saying? I detect some cynicism and poking fun at the reference to the supenovae, which is fair game as far as I am concerned but other than that I do not read a specific message. For my part I ws making the point that two light, excuse me photon sources, simultaneosuly generated from opposite sides of the universe, whether measured or not, would be simultaneous as a physical event by any observer.

I do not wish to make an error in characterizing your post, but if you are making an attempt to trivialize the model you missed the inference that nobody is seriously ever going to make any try at measuing exploding supenovae located at opposite ends of the universe. Had this been the inference DrChinses and for sure Doc Al would have jumped all over it. Is my assesment correct, or what?

In any event welcome to the forum.
 
  • #106
DrChinese it just occurred to me that there is a void in our discussion that needs some attention. For the most part I have been respoding to SR theorists and those supporting the the SR doctrine. Most, if not llopf your latest questions are directed, to a large extent at my concepts and how they fit into SR as criticism or objections. I may be over simlifying here but bear with me.

I introduced an analytic system that I structured and is an original piece, as far as I know, that describes a method of determining whether events simultaneous in one frame can be determined as simultaneous in another. I have not seen any serious criticism that specifically attacks any specific aspect of the model, good bad or indifferent. As the examples used in the model have all been described as showing the inability of determining simultaneity of events in different frames and as I have found a number of exceptions I claim the flaw is intrinsic in SR regardless of all the supportiing material I have seen in these posts intended to elucidate the contrary. If you want to provide something unambiguously specific of my thesis for serious criticism, there is a best way to go about it, directly.

There is nothing particlularly complex with the method used and flaws should be easily discoverable, if existing.

http://frontiernet.net/~geistkiesel/index_files/
 
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  • #107
Well uhh i didn't really read any of the posts exept for the first page, i was just saying by what i understood from that animation his error was to start off with only 1 astronuat and with him being in the middle :-/

Because if he is in the middle he would obviously see the events happen at the same time.

Then he put the other 2 in after the light had reached both sides.

if i had flash or wut ever i would make an animation and show you what i mean.
 
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  • #108
Geistkiesel, hi.
I never claimed I'm an expert and I just want to say this: I don't support this anymore so I stopped posting after a point. But I see that your argument is basically the same. On one of your pages, you say: "We don't even need moving platforms to run the experiment once the stationary event recordings are located". This was the same assumption I made (and now abandoned). If this is true, relativity of simultaneity is wrong, because they are basically opposite claims. But to prove the assumption, you need to go faster than light and relativity evades by prohibiting FTL travel. Now, as you are reading this, I imagine you have an objection but I wasn't there to clarify. Although I hate it when someone presents a different example and not focus on my example, I have to do it now, bear with me please. Suppose an alien claims that events in your kitchen are not simultaneous with events in your bedroom. He says your kitchen is lagging 5 minutes in time. To check this: you leave your bedroom and enter your kitchen, nothing happens, but supposedly you have traveled 5 minutes back in time. You exit the kitchen and go back to your bedroom. If the alien was right, you should find there a duplicate of yourself 5 minutes ago. But here's the catch: the alien sets another rule: you cannot travel from your bedroom to your kitchen under 5 minutes. Therefore you cannot disprove the alien's claim. It's kind of circular. But suppose you could go FTL and verify that assumption. Then you have trouble explaining how the midpoint observer on the moving platform measures speed of lights coming from both directions the same. It all boils down to constancy of speed of light, so maybe MMX was flawed. Please excuse my english.
 
  • #109
I don't see how you could have missed the link

I haven't; I've now read it three times.



Let me make it trivially easy for you to determine if two events are simultaneous, where some have informed me SR says it can't be done.

If you really have done so then there is a theorem that states that your proof can be adjusted to prove things like Euclidean geometry is inconsistent, or that 0 = 1.

So while it's entirely possible that you are correct, I can say that you are wrong with as much confidence as if you claimed that 1 = 2.


More later, but I'm basically going to be bringing up the same objections others have. And BTW, the link you keep linking to me starts with the assumption that simultaneity in one frame means simultaneity in all frames; could you please link to what you feel is the proof of this statement?
 
  • #110
geistkiesel said:
A. I am constructing a theoretical midpoint that is invariant, that is all. Any two wave fronts, wherever located and unrelated to the technical or reasonable ability to measure the situation have a midpoint that is invariant. If the concept is new to you, well then join the club, becaue it is new to me also, but coneptually and physically the description should hold. Do you see a flaw? Applying the description to our hypotheticals is reasonable. Look at my links again , I make much of this in cocnstructing the method for determining whether the photons were emtited simultaneosly.

B. If I understand you yes. The midpoint can be of the type we have been discussing in our hypotheticals, or on the grander scale of simultaneously or even nonsimultaneously errupting supernovae. Liike I mentioned, an expanding wave front chugging along for a million years has a huge number of midpoints between itself and all the other wave fronts in the universe. When a new pulse (photon) comes along, for any reason, another midpoint between the new wave front and the ancient is established.

C. In the hypotheticals we have been discussing, the midpoint is everything. For instance I argued in a previous thread to someone claiming one of the lights had to be pulsed on earlier than the other that he could be correct up to a point. Without any information locating a source, then the wave front is all that matters and that wave fronts could have been pulsed on at any time. I have not expressly used the used the term 'absolute space' in any argument that I recall, and only offered the concept here that under the conditions that the construct of the 'midpoint system' is an effective absolute space, then if SR denies the concept of absolute space SR would would be defective for that reson, right? You and I are debating an issue. You make a statement, any statement, denying the physical reality of 'absolute space'. I take this as meaning you are jusifying SR or something of which I am completely ignorant, but at least I was able to blunt the claim of any making the habitual claim of the lack of an ' absolute sapce' . OK I may have been in the dark, but so what? If one of an infinite number of inebriated Peruvian llamas suddenly handed us a single piece of paper with all the issues laid to rest with all the ambiguities, would you deny using the llama paper, just because it came from a llama?, an inebriated llama at that? or would the truth of the matter be sufficient?

D. Without some information other than the detection of the photons all the observer can determine is the point of collision, that we have been referring to as the "midpoint", can only be determined with certainty as the midpoint of the oncoming wave front originating from the sources wherever located.
In a hypothetical where the moving ovserver passes he midpoint just as the light sources are pulsed on and subsequently measuring the oncoming light then the light from the rear the observer can determine if the "midpoint" he crossed is the midpoint of the sources (because that is a given,) of light, but his information is restricted to the midpoint of the colliding wave fronts. Do you follow what I am saying? The moving observer, knowing his velocity and the fact he zeroed his timer when crossing the midpoint can determine if the subsequent pulses (photons) were emitted simultaneously, this moving observer can only do this with respect to (analysis of) the wave fronts of the emitted lights, each wave front moving at equal velocities and each wave front is located equidistant from the midpoint from the instant the pulses (photons) were turned on.

e. No there isn't any reason I cannot use 'photon' in place of 'pulse'. Was this terminology that confusing?

A. This is new to me. What are you talking about? How do 2 photons sources have a single midpoint which is equidistant from both? You also tried to explain this in D. and I have no idea what you are getting at. There are an infinite number of locations that meet the criteria you describe. And what is special about this point?

B. Midpoints. New and ancient. What are you talking about? Why do you talk about wavefronts and pulses instead of photons? Is there some purpose to this language?

C. More midpoints, pulse and waves. Of what? And you again say that midpoints define an absolute space ("the construct of the 'midpoint system' is an effective absolute space"). In Cartesian geometry, the "midpoint" of 2 points has location relative to the other 2 points, and does not gain any "absolute" status due to being the midpoint. So how do you go from relative positions to absolute positions?

D. You mention that an observer knows his velocity. How? An observer can know their velocity only relative to some other object, which in turns has a relative velocity to other objects. If you are walking down the street at 3 mph, that is not your absolute velocity.

E. Yes, it is a problem to use language which is not specific because it is impossible to discuss the subject intelligently. You use midpoint, pulses, and wavefronts. If you were trying to somehow use one of Einstein's train examples, you would note he is much more specific as to what the positions A, B and M represents, and specificly uses the term "light" to specify we are talking about EM radiation. Light or photon, same thing.
 
  • #111
Come on!

Oh please! We already proved relativity a long time ago. What are you trying to do, win a nobel prize?
 
  • #112
geistkiesel said:
DrChinese it just occurred to me that there is a void in our discussion that needs some attention. For the most part I have been respoding to SR theorists and those supporting the the SR doctrine. Most, if not llopf your latest questions are directed, to a large extent at my concepts and how they fit into SR as criticism or objections. I may be over simlifying here but bear with me.

I introduced an analytic system that I structured and is an original piece, as far as I know, that describes a method of determining whether events simultaneous in one frame can be determined as simultaneous in another. ...

There is nothing particlularly complex with the method used and flaws should be easily discoverable, if existing.

http://frontiernet.net/~geistkiesel/index_files/

Your example is hard to understand. It is very similar to the one by Einstein quoted by Martin Miller HERE. I am not sure if yours is intended to provide a different perspective than this one or not. At any rate, that one has been torn to death in the other thread To summarize its conclusion:

"Every reference-body (co-ordinate system) has its own particular time; unless we are told the reference-body to which the statement of time refers, there is no meaning in a statement of the time of an event."

I agree with this statement. This is the realtivity of simultaneity, in Einstein's words. I see nothing in your example that contradicts this. All observers will not agree on the time (possible simultaneity) of specific events unless they are first given information as to reference frame to measure against. Seems pretty simeple to me. Where's the beef?
 
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  • #113
If wespe ever reads through this again, I'd like to point out that you still haven't dealt with the fact that if you place an astronaut anywhere other than between the two clocks, his readings will not agree with an astronaut's who is between the clocks.

To the rest of you, there seems to be a very basic semantic error that is causing all of this misunderstanding. Geistkiesel is speaking of time as if time itself is an absolute frame of reference, but that is speaking as if time is something tangible. Time cannot be seen; time is only a medium that we move through. The central idea of relativity, the thread that binds SR and GR, is that all objects are moving at the speed of light. It isn't just the maximum speed; it is the only speed. But this speed must be parcelled out through each of four dimensions. Therefore, the faster an object moves through space, the slower it must move through time, with the speed of light being the upper barrier at which all movement through the temporal dimension ceases.

The point to this being that simultaneous events will occur simultaneously, but they will still occur at different times depending on who is watching. The prescient bit of info here is that these different times occur simultaneously. I have to admit that our language is ill-equipped to deal with this reality, and it seems inconsistent in that I am essentially saying that different times occur at the same time, but it is important to distinguish between a single moment and movement through time. If one clock says that it is 10:23 and another says that it is 10:22, they can do so simultaneously even if they are both correct, because their movement through time is not taking place at the same speed.

I admit that I am having difficulty following what I just typed myself, and again, I don't think the english language is well-equipped to express these ideas adequately, so feel free to ask for clarification on any point.
 
  • #114
loseyourname said:
If wespe ever reads through this again, I'd like to point out that you still haven't dealt with the fact that if you place an astronaut anywhere other than between the two clocks, his readings will not agree with an astronaut's who is between the clocks.

Lol, here we go again. Yes, what you are saying is correct. But it is irrelevant. I did not say readings would agree if astronauts are not between the clocks. What I presented is a valid method for synchronizing clocks. It works, provided that: the two clocks and the astronauts are all stationary wrt each other, and the astronauts are on the line between the clocks. Beauty of it is that the two clocks need not be synchronized at the beginning, and you don't have to know the speed of light, and you don't have to measure the distances between clocks or astronauts. It works. It can also be used to synchronize any number of clocks in 3D space. Imagine two astronauts standing next to the two clocks. They synchronize their own clocks and then they replace those clocks with their own! [Then continue with the next two pairs of clocks]. Simple and useful. No need to resort to slow transport method or something else.
(please no more posts asking what if clocks move, what if astronauts not between, etc. Lol)

edit: If some of you think that my method is unimportant and it shouldn't be a problem to synchronize two stationary clocks, I'm interested in how this can be done. For example if you just reset two co-located clocks and send one of them to a distant place, they would be out of synch since you accelerated one of them due to relativity effects. If you send a signal from one clock to a distant one, you need to know the speed of light and the distance. If you send a signal from a midpoint to reset two distant clocks, you first have to measure and find the midpoint. I'm no expert, please correct me if I'm wrong.
 
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  • #115
If that is all you're saying, wespe, I can't see how that refutes, or even has anything to do with relativity. Synchronizing two clocks isn't the issue; the rate at which each clock moves through time is. The thing is that if one clock is moving at an extremely high speed (that is, a statistically significant fraction of the speed of light), then the time it reads will change at a slower pace that of a clock that is not moving at such a high speed. This effect has been verified simply by placing one atomic clock on a high-speed train and leaving another stationary and observing the different in the rates they read. With this taken into consideration, your example is null when one clock is moving very fast, as one clock will not be reading each second as the other clock is. One clock will read 1 as the other reads 20, but then it will read 2 as the other reads 18, 3 as the other reads 16, 4 as the other reads 14, etc. (if one moves at exactly twice the rate of the other). In this case, the averages will be the same, but so what? You can clearly see that his does not mean the clocks are then moving through time at the same pace. Can you see how the average read by someone between the clocks is not relevant and why so many people just laughed you off at the start of the thread?
 
  • #116
loseyourname said:
If that is all you're saying, wespe,

Yes, that is all I am saying now. I have now edited my first post.
 
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  • #117
Are you going to now edit the title of the thread?

*I know you can't. I'm being facetious.*
 
  • #118
loseyourname said:
Are you going to now edit the title of the thread?

*I know you can't. I'm being facetious.*

Surely if his theory is correct, then he would find this no problem!..he could alter all of 'OUR' clocks and we would be answering to different questions..in another thread somewhere. :biggrin:
 
  • #119
loseyourname said:
Are you going to now edit the title of the thread?

*I know you can't. I'm being facetious.*

yeah, "How I failed to refute relativity"
 
  • #120
Olias said:
Surely if his theory is correct, then he would find this no problem!..he could alter all of 'OUR' clocks and we would be answering to different questions..in another thread somewhere. :biggrin:

you will all be so sorry when I invent the time travel machine :)
 

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