Undergrad When to use which dimensionless number

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In capillary-driven flows, the Ohnesorge number is preferred over the Reynolds number because it incorporates the effects of surface tension, which are significant in low Bond number scenarios. The discussion highlights that the choice of dimensionless numbers depends on the specific physical phenomena being analyzed, as different dimensionless groups emerge from the governing equations based on the relevant scales. The participants note that while Reynolds number is not typically used in these contexts, it can be related to the Ohnesorge number under certain conditions. The conversation also touches on the importance of dimensional analysis and the scaling of equations to derive relevant parameters for fluid dynamics problems. Ultimately, the choice of dimensionless numbers reflects the dominant physics of the flow being studied.
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Hi PF!

I've been reading about low gravity capillary driven flows, and no authors use Reynolds number when measuring importance of inertia in capillary driven flows. Instead most use the Ohnesorge number. Can someone explain why this is?

Thanks!
 
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Did you google ?
 
BvU said:
Did you google ?
I did. The Ohnesorge number is evidently like a Reynolds number but with a capillary length scale. What would cause someone to think of this?
 
Significance of surface tension in capillary flow
 
BvU said:
Significance of surface tension in capillary flow
But there doesn't seem to be anything intrinsically wrong with Reynolds number. Sure, it doesn't measure surface tension, but why isn't it really ever used for low Bond number capillary flows?
 
@Chestermiller : you know of someone in PF with specific expertise here ? Unfortunately for Josh, mine is just hearsay :sorry: .
 
BvU said:
@Chestermiller : you know of someone in PF with specific expertise here ? Unfortunately for Josh, mine is just hearsay :sorry: .
Very often in systems like this, we start out with the differential equations and use a systematic approach developed by Hellums and Churchill to reduce the equations to dimensionless form. The key dimensionless groups automatically emerge from this methodology (with some small leeway on selection of the groups). As first year graduate students at Michigan, we were taught this simple methodology by Stu Churchill back in 1963 (at that time, he was chairman of the ChE Dept.). It has served me well over the years.
 
Thanks, Chet !

Also consulted with my roommate (from my point of view an expert...) who knows all these numbers, but he didn't come much further than: we use it in droplet formation to find correlations.

My own googling didn't get me far, but I did like the overview lemma.

As a physicist, when I 'm in a bad mood, I am inclined to think that these chemical engineers make up these dimensionless numbers as much as they can for two reasons: 1. as a claim to fame and immortality and 2. to make parity plots (preferably log-log) where at least three of these numbers appear with fractional exponents. :wink: But only when I'm in a bad mood, of course. And my roommate is a mathematician.
 
hahahahaha this is a funny point! :oldlaugh: Ok then, maybe it's simply from scaling the equations! Thanks for your guys' help!
 
  • #10
Well, the Ohnesorge number is related to the Weber number and the Reynolds number, so under certain conditions (##We\approx 1##) it is effectively equivalent to Reynolds number.

The greater point here is that the choice of dimensionless group depends on the phenomena being studied at the time. The point made by @Chestermiller is important in that these dimensionless groups fall out of the governing equations (most importantly the Navier-Stokes equations) when you make them dimensionless based on scales that are important to the problem you are studying. However, what those scales are is up to you to define and will change from one class of problems to the next. Alternatively, one can carry out a dimensional analysis of the problem (e.g. by the Buckingham Pi Theorem) and those groups will fall out based on the various combinations of important parameters to the problem.

The bottom line is that different physics are dominant for different problems, and your choice of dimensionless groupings must reflect that.
 
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  • #11
Josh,

Why don't you provide the dimensional equations for your specific problem, and I'll illustrate the procedure.

Chet
 
  • #12
Chestermiller said:
Josh,

Why don't you provide the dimensional equations for your specific problem, and I'll illustrate the procedure.

Chet
The problem is fluid flowing down a wedge, though I think I understand the scaling, if that's what you're referring to? If ##z## is the direction of flow, ##y## is the coordinate going into the wedge, and ##x## goes from the corner upwards, ##\alpha## the half-corner angle of the wedge, and ##L## a characteristic length (in ##z## direction) and ##H## characteristic height (in ##x## direction) then scales look like
$$z \sim L\\
x \sim H\\
y \sim H\tan\alpha.$$
In this problem the Bond number is very small, and gravity can be neglected. Then Young-Laplace governs pressure (we assume negligible surface stress, since air is above the fluid) and the transverse curvature is assumed much greater than axial, reducing pressure equation to:
$$\Delta P = \sigma\frac{1}{R}\implies\\
P \sim \frac{\sigma}{fH}$$
where ##f = (\cos\theta/\sin\alpha-1)^{-1}## is a geometric function such that ##fH=R## where ##R## is the radius of curvature in the ##x-y## plane and ##\theta## is static contact angle of fluid. Then scaling the ##z## component of Navier Stokes yields to order ##\epsilon \equiv H/L##:
$$P_z = \sin^2\alpha\partial^2_xw+\cos^2\alpha\partial^2_yw.$$
It makes perfect sense to me that the Ohnesorge number emerges with the inertial terms (not included here for simplicity). However, to get a Reynolds number you'd have the Weber number like boneh3ad said. It's just interesting to me that this fluids problem doesn't really require a Reynolds number. What do you both think?
 
  • #13
I think I'd still like to see the formulation of the differential equations and boundary conditions.
 
  • #14
Chestermiller said:
I think I'd still like to see the formulation of the differential equations and boundary conditions.
Before I continue, I forgot a very important scale: ##w##. If we assume pressure balances viscosity, then dimensional constant density NS yields in ##z## component
$$\partial_zP = \mu \nabla^2 w\implies\\
\frac{\sigma}{H f L} \sim \mu\left(\frac{1}{H^2}+\frac{1}{H^2\tan^2\alpha}+\frac{1}{L^2}\right)w\implies\\
\frac{\sigma}{H f L} \sim \mu\left(\frac{\tan^2\alpha + 1}{H^2\tan^2\alpha}\right)w\implies\implies\\
\frac{\sigma}{H f L} \sim \mu\left(\frac{\sec^2\alpha}{H^2\tan^2\alpha}\right)w\implies\\
\frac{\sigma}{H f L} \sim \mu\left(\frac{1}{H^2\sin^2\alpha}\right)w\implies\\
w \sim \frac{\sigma H\sin^2\alpha}{ f L \mu}\implies\\
w \sim \frac{\epsilon \sigma \sin^2\alpha}{ f \mu}.
$$
Notice I neglected ##1/L^2## term since ##\epsilon = H^2/L^2\ll 1## (slender column). Also, I would guess time scales as ##t \sim L/w##, though I'm not sure why I'm inclined to use ##w## rather than ##u,v##. Most of the flow is ##z## directed; is that good enough reason? Anyways, the formulation of the differential equations, assuming we start with dimensional NS and constant density, would be (for ##z## component, though I could do the other two if you'd like as well)

$$
\rho\frac{D w}{Dt} = \partial_zP+\mu \nabla^2w\implies\\
\frac{\rho W}{L/W}\frac{D w}{Dt} = \frac{\sigma}{HfL}\partial_zP+\frac{\mu W}{H^2\sin^2\alpha} \nabla^2w\implies\\
\frac{\rho W^2}{L}\frac{HfL}{\sigma}\frac{D w}{Dt} = \partial_zP+\frac{HfL}{\sigma}\frac{\mu W}{H^2\sin^2\alpha} \nabla^2w
$$

but we already balanced pressure and viscosity, so we know both terms on the RHS are now ##O(1)##, thus we have

$$\frac{\rho W^2}{L}\frac{HfL}{\sigma}\frac{D w}{Dt} = \partial_zP+\nabla^2w\implies\\
\left(\frac{\epsilon \sigma \sin^2\alpha}{ f \mu}\right)^2\frac{\rho }{1}\frac{Hf}{\sigma}\frac{D w}{Dt} = \partial_zP+\nabla^2w\implies\\
\left(\frac{\epsilon^2 \sin^4\alpha}{ f }\right) \frac{\sigma \rho H}{\mu^2}\frac{D w}{Dt} = \partial_zP+\nabla^2w\implies\\
\left(\frac{\epsilon^2 \sin^4\alpha}{ f }\right) \frac{1}{Oh^2}\frac{D w}{Dt} = \partial_zP+\nabla^2w\implies\\$$
and ##Oh \equiv \mu/\sqrt{\rho \sigma H}##. How does this look?
 
  • #15
And boundary conditions...oh gosh. So zero slip on the wedge, zero stress along the free surface. Hmmmm physically aren't those it?
 
  • #16
joshmccraney said:
The problem is fluid flowing down a wedge, though I think I understand the scaling, if that's what you're referring to? If ##z## is the direction of flow, ##y## is the coordinate going into the wedge, and ##x## goes from the corner upwards, ##\alpha## the half-corner angle of the wedge, and ##L## a characteristic length (in ##z## direction) and ##H## characteristic height (in ##x## direction) then scales look like
$$z \sim L\\
x \sim H\\
y \sim H\tan\alpha.$$
In this problem the Bond number is very small, and gravity can be neglected. Then Young-Laplace governs pressure (we assume negligible surface stress, since air is above the fluid) and the transverse curvature is assumed much greater than axial, reducing pressure equation to:
$$\Delta P = \sigma\frac{1}{R}\implies\\
P \sim \frac{\sigma}{fH}$$
where ##f = (\cos\theta/\sin\alpha-1)^{-1}## is a geometric function such that ##fH=R## where ##R## is the radius of curvature in the ##x-y## plane and ##\theta## is static contact angle of fluid. Then scaling the ##z## component of Navier Stokes yields to order ##\epsilon \equiv H/L##:
$$P_z = \sin^2\alpha\partial^2_xw+\cos^2\alpha\partial^2_yw.$$
It makes perfect sense to me that the Ohnesorge number emerges with the inertial terms (not included here for simplicity). However, to get a Reynolds number you'd have the Weber number like boneh3ad said. It's just interesting to me that this fluids problem doesn't really require a Reynolds number. What do you both think?
I don't understand your description of the physical problem. Can you please provide a diagram?
 
  • #17
joshmccraney said:
The problem is fluid flowing down a wedge,
<snip>
In this problem the Bond number is very small, and gravity can be neglected. <snip>

But what is driving the flow? An (external) applied pressure gradient? Marangoni effect? Something else?

Edit: hang on, I re-read your OP. Capillary driven flow. Got it.

Edit #2: Here's a reference you may find useful, especially sections 2.2 and 2.3: https://ac.els-cdn.com/S03019322060...t=1512499461_7ce3a4db15d949752b591ed73f002381
 
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  • #18
Chestermiller said:
I don't understand your description of the physical problem. Can you please provide a diagram?
Here is a schematic of the flow.
 

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  • #19
Andy Resnick said:
But what is driving the flow? An (external) applied pressure gradient? Marangoni effect? Something else?

Edit: hang on, I re-read your OP. Capillary driven flow. Got it.
Hi Andy.

If you understand the geometry, maybe you can provide a diagram before Josh does.
 
  • #20
joshmccraney said:
Here is a schematic of the flow.

Chestermiller said:
Hi Andy.

If you understand the geometry, maybe you can provide a diagram before Josh does.

This is a 'standard' problem- but not a simple one. There's at least one book and 1 NASA flight experiment that is devoted to this specific problem. Can't immediately find a PDF breaking down the governing equations, but I'm sure the OP can find a suitable reference.
 
  • #21
Andy Resnick said:
This is a 'standard' problem- but not a simple one. There's at least one book and 1 NASA flight experiment that is devoted to this specific problem. Can't immediately find a PDF breaking down the governing equations, but I'm sure the OP can find a suitable reference.
Yes, you're right. This is a canonical problem in capillary driven corner flows. There are several papers describing what I posted, though perhaps slightly more dense that what I wrote? And the NASA flight experiment you refer to is the topic of my grant proposal due Dec 15. In fact, my previous adviser at a different university than that I attend now was the PI for the flight experiment you refer to: CFE ICF flight experiments.

Hahahahhaa small world. So, as you may wonder, how did this question initially surface about dimensionless numbers? My current adviser asked me for Reynolds numbers and Ohnesorge numbers for the very flight experiments you reference (CFE ICF). I was confused because I've never considered Reynolds numbers for that flow since the scaling didn't automatically provide any. I was curious what people on these forums thought :oldbiggrin:
 
  • #22
joshmccraney said:
Here is a schematic of the flow.
I'm sorry Josh. I can't make sense out of this figure. I'm more confused than ever. Can you please try again?
 
  • #23
Chestermiller said:
I'm sorry Josh. I can't make sense out of this figure. I'm more confused than ever. Can you please try again?
Here's a sketch I drew a while ago. I probably should've used this earlier. The corner angle measures ##2\alpha## (not shown).
 

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  • #24
joshmccraney said:
Here's a sketch I drew a while ago. I probably should've used this earlier. The corner angle measures ##2\alpha## (not shown).
This is much better. As I understand it, you have a trough with liquid flowing down the trough. It is a transient situation, with an advancing wetting front. You are introducing fluid at the left. Does this capture it?
 
  • #25
Chestermiller said:
This is much better. As I understand it, you have a trough with liquid flowing down the trough. It is a transient situation, with an advancing wetting front. You are introducing fluid at the left. Does this capture it?
Your understanding is correct! Yes, it's transient, and some of the flows have an advancing front, and others are pinned. I think the scales work out; what do you think? I suppose you could specify a flow-rate condition at a specified height at an end, but I don't think that would change the analysis would it?
 
  • #26
joshmccraney said:
Your understanding is correct! Yes, it's transient, and some of the flows have an advancing front, and others are pinned. I think the scales work out; what do you think? I suppose you could specify a flow-rate condition at a specified height at an end, but I don't think that would change the analysis would it?
I don't know yet. I'm just starting to think about this problem.
 
  • #27
Is the flow supposed to be a uniform velocity profile at the inlet? Is that what is specified? I assume this is set up in cylindrical coordinates, correct? My first step would be to parameterize the free surface shape, and get surface tangents, unit normal, and curvature.
 
  • #28
Chestermiller said:
Is the flow supposed to be a uniform velocity profile at the inlet? Is that what is specified? I assume this is set up in cylindrical coordinates, correct? My first step would be to parameterize the free surface shape, and get surface tangents, unit normal, and curvature.
I've seen all this in papers, but sometimes you do things differently. If you want to see how others have done it I am happy to send you the publication but I wouldn't mind reworking this with you. Again, you've done things differently in the past and I always learn something.
 
  • #29
joshmccraney said:
Yes, you're right. This is a canonical problem in capillary driven corner flows. There are several papers describing what I posted, though perhaps slightly more dense that what I wrote? And the NASA flight experiment you refer to is the topic of my grant proposal due Dec 15. In fact, my previous adviser at a different university than that I attend now was the PI for the flight experiment you refer to: CFE ICF flight experiments.

Hahahahhaa small world. So, as you may wonder, how did this question initially surface about dimensionless numbers? My current adviser asked me for Reynolds numbers and Ohnesorge numbers for the very flight experiments you reference (CFE ICF). I was confused because I've never considered Reynolds numbers for that flow since the scaling didn't automatically provide any. I was curious what people on these forums thought :oldbiggrin:

I'm familiar with these experiments :)

Yeah, it's tricky because there's a lot going on. For the CFE-ICF experiments concerned with two-phase bubbly flow, I would expect the capillary number to be most important, and the Oh and We numbers to be less relevant. To be sure, two-phase flow regimes are segregated using terms involving the Reynolds number:

http://cdn.intechopen.com/pdfs/40637/InTech-Two_phase_flow.pdf

If the liquid phase does not completely wet the solid, then the real issue is contact line motion- I don't think that problem can be scaled to generate a dimensionless number (similarity parameter).

Maybe you've already seen this:
https://www.cambridge.org/core/jour...erior-corner/8C88D0772C50153457B155B8B1DDB029
 
  • #30
Andy Resnick said:
I'm familiar with these experiments :)

Yeah, it's tricky because there's a lot going on. For the CFE-ICF experiments concerned with two-phase bubbly flow, I would expect the capillary number to be most important, and the Oh and We numbers to be less relevant. To be sure, two-phase flow regimes are segregated using terms involving the Reynolds number:

http://cdn.intechopen.com/pdfs/40637/InTech-Two_phase_flow.pdf
That's a good link for dimensionless numbers.

Andy Resnick said:
If the liquid phase does not completely wet the solid, then the real issue is contact line motion- I don't think that problem can be scaled to generate a dimensionless number (similarity parameter).

Maybe you've already seen this:
https://www.cambridge.org/core/jour...erior-corner/8C88D0772C50153457B155B8B1DDB029
Oh yes, when I was Mark's (Weislogel) student he gave me his thesis to familiarize myself with the subject, the bulk of which is in this publication. I've read this paper once or twice ;)
 

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