Dismiss Notice
Join Physics Forums Today!
The friendliest, high quality science and math community on the planet! Everyone who loves science is here!

News Which U.S. President's Lie Carries More Implications?

  1. Apr 6, 2006 #1
    Hmmm. Court documents in the Libby case now reveal President Bush, all along, was one of those who authorized the leaking of classified information (incl. of Valerie Plame) leading up to the Iraq war - according to today's MSN story http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12187153/.

    So - the Question I pose is: Which U.S. President's lie carries more critical implications for America? That by President Clinton, or by President Bush?

    President Clinton had stated, "I did not have sex with that woman."

    President Bush had stated, "Anyone in the White House who leaked classified information on the identify of a CIA operative will be dealt with harshly." (unsure if quoted verbatim). I believe he also more directly denied any involvement in another press interview.
  2. jcsd
  3. Apr 7, 2006 #2

    Ivan Seeking

    User Avatar
    Staff Emeritus
    Science Advisor
    Gold Member

    The wheels of justice are slowly turning.

    You know, Delay was largely responsible for Clinton's impeachment. And if the Dems win in 06, Bush will likely be thrown out of office.
  4. Apr 7, 2006 #3


    User Avatar
    Science Advisor
    Homework Helper

    Even though Dick Cheney is Vice President?
  5. Apr 7, 2006 #4

    Ivan Seeking

    User Avatar
    Staff Emeritus
    Science Advisor
    Gold Member

    Let's see where the Libby things goes... But yes, we would certainly hope that it goes as the Agnew/Nixon admin did - Agnew first, then Nixon. Besides, do you really think Chenney would play any greater role as President than he does now? He would be a lame old duck just counting the days.
  6. Apr 7, 2006 #5


    User Avatar

    Staff: Mentor

    I don't see how that's possible - certainly with a simple majority they may well choose to impeach him, but unless the Democrats take an enormous majority, they will need an awful lot of Republicans to vote to remove him.
  7. Apr 7, 2006 #6
    You know, Republicans have been dead silent on this issue. To me, that means that there is no way that they can spin this. I think their days of mindlessly supporting Bush are pretty much over. When you bill yourself as the party of national security, and your president leaks information for political gain (even if the act was legal), then it becomes pretty hard to support him.
  8. Apr 7, 2006 #7


    User Avatar
    Science Advisor
    Homework Helper

    Well, Cheney can still face the music, so it's not necessarily untrue. Not to mention that it's not entirely clear to me that when Bush or Cheney (who are after all, authorized to declassify documents) reveal information, it's actually a leak.
  9. Apr 7, 2006 #8
    A simple majority in the House will allow them to impeach, just like with Clinton. A simple majority in the Senate will see him tried, convicted and removed from office.

    [edit] I think that because the Republican majority has declined to provide any oversight these past 5 years will cause them tremendous trouble this mid-term. [/edit]
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 7, 2006
  10. Apr 7, 2006 #9


    User Avatar

    Staff: Mentor

    It's 2/3 to convict, Skyhunter.

    Article 1, section 3:
  11. Apr 7, 2006 #10
  12. Apr 7, 2006 #11
    Didn't anyone wonder WHY the Libby trial was put off until AFTER the '06 elections? I suspect a "deal" has already been struck! What that is .... is like a board game. Most of the plays have already been made. Who will be left standing??? Cheney makes for a nice catch, but what if...?

    Trust me on this. The only thing the Bush White House is concerned with is having a Republican win in the '08 election. Most of the power rests with the President, and the re-aligned USSC will affirm these new Presidential powers. Therefore, Bush cannot afford to be impeached, and any costs to others' careers.

    Things are not always as they appear. But, if you can see deeper, you can see .....
  13. Apr 8, 2006 #12
    Source: http://www.scrantontimes.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=16450661&BRD=2185&PAG=461&dept_id=418218&rfi=6

    And so it is high tiime, a bible belter might say our country is being led down the road tot perdition.

    The cancer needs to be cut out before it destroys a country.

    The reporters (CHRIS KELLY, Times-Tribune columnist) words:
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 8, 2006
  14. Apr 8, 2006 #13
    And now this:

    http://www.freemarketnews.com/WorldNews.asp?nid=10881 [Broken]

    My God bush claimed over and over that the wiretapping/e-mail reading, was only being done when there was one foreign party involved.

    What really bothers me about this claim that the president is "above all authority" is that the domestic information gathered in this manner can be used for political gain. Or for that matter it could easil be used for financial gain.

    This situation has sunk far, far, too low to be a part of a democratic nation.
    Last edited by a moderator: May 2, 2017
  15. Apr 8, 2006 #14


    User Avatar
    Gold Member

    And look what that statement led us to! A Family Guy material

  16. Apr 8, 2006 #15
    Hey Russ, since you're usually the one defending Bush, I'm just curious: what's your take on this?
  17. Apr 8, 2006 #16


    User Avatar

    Staff: Mentor

    I already gave my input.
  18. Apr 8, 2006 #17
    I mean on the declassification/leak issue, not on whether Bush can be impeached or not.
  19. Apr 9, 2006 #18
    Correct. This is the TRUE concern at the heart of the President and NSA's unregulated "easedropping." Information COULD easily be collected and used to destroy potential political rivals, reporters, and federal regulators (i.e. ongoing investigation into Libby trial).

    With respect to big competition and info on/between competing companies, HOW MUCH would a big Wall Street firm pay for info to destroy its competition, critical scientists, investors, etc?

    And speak of insider trading - what price might Wall Street funds and foreign investors pay for this information, esp. Arab where records aren't available to the U.S.?

    This could make Iran Contra look like sandbox childs play! Such information and $ would then enable the sitting President Bush and his selected Republican successors to control the White House and the country.

    Again, most of the POWER today rests with the President! The Iraq War conveniently anables these POWERS. There you have it: Why the U.S. invaded Iraq, and How Bush selected the 2 new USSC Justices. It was never really about overturning Roe v. Wade. It was about upholding the White House's new claims on Presidential Powers - Check Mate!
  20. Apr 9, 2006 #19

    I agree completely, and since this absolute presidential power depends greatly on having the nation at war, we will remain at war. Otherwise Bush's war power turns into no power.

    I live near an AF base in southern AZ, and there has been a tremendous increase in the number of training flights headed for the Goldwater bombing range. There are also several squadrons of Navy F18's training here now. They have never trained here before, but then again this is the desert.

    In addition a local 450 member National Guard attack helicopter unit has just been mobilized for two years. The unit is to go through eight months of intensive training before deployment to the Middle East.

    My gut feeling now is that we will be sending Iran some shock and awe in the not too distant future.
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2006
  21. Apr 10, 2006 #20
    Apparently for this extreme Right-Wing administration, it never really mattered whether the U.S. prevaiedl in any of these wars. So long as the U.S. is engaged in a "war," it enables special far-reaching Presidential powers. Perhaps the issue we Americans and Congress should be raising, is Are we really at War?

    I can't recall, but I don't think Bush ever requested a "Declaration of War" from Congress! Bush just struted right past it - stating it was a continuation of the 911 Response. Good constitutional scholars could attack him on this point - and perhaps strip him of the War powers he is claiming.
  22. Apr 10, 2006 #21
    I'm pretty sure congress allowed it if Saddam didn't give up his WMD's.
  23. Apr 10, 2006 #22
    Here I found the official congressional authorization.

    http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/10/20021002-2.html [Broken]
    Last edited by a moderator: May 2, 2017
  24. Apr 10, 2006 #23
    The use of military force was auhorized, but there was never any formal declaration of war. For that matter there was no declaration of war for: Korea or Vietnam. So where does Bush get this drivel about his war powers?

    During the Korean and Vietnam eras referred to as wars, none of the sitting presidents took it upon themselves to take control of the intelligence community, spy on the American people, and turn their administrations into a secret enclave of a select few.

    Bush elecits "terrorism" as his battle cry, yet Iraq had nothing to do with terrorism. Even so he clings to "terrorism" as if it were the only word in his vocabulary.

    This is all about oil folks. If there wasn't any oil in the Middle East, we wouldn't be in the Middle east. The only place we used military force in a justified and uncoerced manner was in Afghanistan.

    We all know whose lies had the most detrimental effect on the American people. The point now is, when will the deception stop? If we take military action against Iran we will have troops in the Middle East until the oil runs out.

    Yet I have a gut feeling that if our war president continues we will intervene militarily in Iran and the same rallying cries will be heard by the American people: Terrorism, nuclear weapons, terrorism, nuclear weapons on and on and on.
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2006
  25. Apr 11, 2006 #24
    Hmmm. War against Iran.

    (Thinking for the Bush White House) "Geez, I wonder how much oil would climb if we attacked Iran. $100 a barrel real quickly. That would mean all of our oil friends and interests would make a lot more money. Then we could really control the country, plus scare 'em all over more terror!"

    Strangely, the Bush White House isn't lying! Bit by bit, they're now telling the truth. And the American people are just taking it like there is no alternate course.
  26. Apr 11, 2006 #25


    User Avatar
    Gold Member

    Good point, and why I have always said Bush is a self declared "war president" for an invasion he needlessly instigated.

    About the Plame leak: http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-04-10-cia-leak_x.htm?POE=NEWISVA

    There are two, related issues here.

    First is that of Plame's name. She was still undercover (classified information) when Libby had his meeting with RNC pundit Judith Miller. In that meeting, most of what was discussed was about Plame, who she is, and spin to discredit her husband Joe Wilson.

    The information that Bush declassified was parts of the National Intelligence Estimate (NIE) to answer questions about why the United States invaded Iraq. Though he can legally declassify what ever he chooses, the problem is proper procedure was not followed (the MO for BushCo) and instead of releasing the entire report, Bush "cherry picked" parts to be released to the public, i.e., fixing the intelligence to fit the agenda.

    It is clear that Cheney gave approval to Libby to smear Wilson, and it is clear that Bush mislead the American people, Congress, and the UN about uranium/aluminum tube/yellowcake from Niger.

    What the RNC argues is that the smear against Wilson was not done illegally, and that Bush did not commit perjury by lying under oath. What the American people need to do is demand the impeachment of Bush/Cheney for abusing our trust with unethical tactics to achieve a costly and bungled agenda, illegal or not.

    When one adds to this other trust violations, such as warrantless wiretaps, it should be a moot point that BushCo needs to go.
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2006
Share this great discussion with others via Reddit, Google+, Twitter, or Facebook