Why do birds on power lines not act as resistors?

[steve0606]

Imagine a circuit with a cell and no resistors. If I connected a resistor to two points in the circuit, would a current flow through it? Does a bird on a power line act like this? Why does it not get electrocuted?
Sorry if this is a stupid question - I'm terrible with electronics!

 

[Simon Bridge]

They do.

The resistance of the bird is very high compared to the resistance of the bit of cable between their feet.

 

[steve0606]

They do.

The resistance of the bird is very high compared to the resistance of the bit of cable between their feet.

Thanks for your reply. If that's true, why do most people say its because "It doesn't form a complete circuit".

 

[DaveC426913]

Thanks for your reply. If that's true, why do most people say its because "It doesn't form a complete circuit".

It's a reasonable simplification of the answer.

If I grab a live wire but I am otherwise insulated, I won't get a shock. It would be overly nitpicky to talk about the closed circuits formed by each finger.

 

[Simon Bridge]

Try explaining electric circuits to most people and you'll find out why - besides it's pretty much the same thing... basically no current flows through them like sea-level doesn't change when you take a bucket of water out of the ocean. The effect is a bit like lightning choosing to strike the lightning rod and not some to the rod and some to the building.

otoh: I heard of squirrels getting fried when they hop from the wire to a transformer case. Presumably birds dump their surplus charge when they fly.

 

[steve0606]

So what you're saying is that a bird would have a current flowing through it, but because its resistance is much higher than that of the cable, it is negligible. So we may say that it isn't really a proper circuit.

 

[vk6kro]

Thanks for your reply. If that's true, why do most people say its because "It doesn't form a complete circuit".

Because most people are right.

Birds are generally smaller than the space between wires on a power distribution system. So, they don't get a high voltage across them and they don't get electrocuted.

However large birds, like eagles and owls can easily bridge the gap between the wires, especially if two birds are fighting while on different lines.

Then you get a bright flash, burning feathers and a smell of roast chicken.


(Welcome Simon Bridge)

 

[Astroalcher]

That would be the oxidization of collagen

 

[jim hardy]

when a bird lands on a wire he will be at the same voltage as that wire. so only enough current flows into bird to raise him to that voltage.
so long as that current is less than he can feel in his feet, he'll be unaware.

if you notice, birds typically avoid wires more than about 40kv. it tickles their feet.

we had a 500 kv line through the swamp. every evening about dusk there'd be faults, which were traced to big wading swamp birds roosting on the steel crosarms above the wire. if you've ever seen one of those birds 'poop', well it's a stream rather like a garden hose. should the bird be right over the wire when he goes, he gets vaporized with a big flash.
the transmission folks welded uncomfortable plates to crossarms right over the wires so the birds would roost a few feet away.

old jim

 

[psparky]

Electricity is lazy. It has to work to go thru the bird. Or it can flow easily thru a low resistance wire. There is a small trickle current going thru the bird, but not enough to effect it.

Picture this...two resistors in parallel. One really low resistance...one really high resistance. One resistor (the wire) has a really low resistance...say .005 Ohm per inch. Say the bird has a resistance of 2,000 ohms. Again, the current is lazy and chooses the wire for 99.9999% of it's current.

Now if the bird could reach out and grab phase B while standing on phase A...the bird would practically vaporize in a millisecond. Just sayin:)

 

[jim hardy]

well , flamigoes do sleep standing in shallow water on one foot.
i've always wondered if this habit evolved to protect them from nearby lightning strokes, which could cause significant voltage to appear between their feet were both in the water.

 

[Mike_In_Plano]

Critters commonly get electrocuted at pole transformers. People who hunt with falcons or hawks are weary of this. I've also seen a squirrel get toasted as he stepped from the wire to the transformer.

 

[Bassalisk]

I don't think bird don't get electrocuted because they have high resistance...

I mean we are still talking about 20kV or so. If they did somehow complete the circuit, current would pass through them.

But here is my view.

They are NOT in fact completing the circuit.

If a bird sits on a wire, there is no way that it can complete the circuit, it is just sitting on a bare wire. That wire might be hot from the passing current, but anyway this is the same as you jumping and holding the phase wire, or touching a live wire, with just one hand.

But this only goes for low power lines, like 20 kV. For 500 kV, there is a different story.

And no they do not act like a resistor. Do an experiment at home.

Take a 9 V battery, connect it to a resistor, let's say 500 ohms, and then short circuit that resistor, in parallel.

Current won't go through the resistor any more, as a poster before said, current is lazy and it wants to go through a path with less resistance, ergo your short circuit wire will get very hot.

Your bird is your resistor, and your line is your short circuit.

 

[Borek]

However large birds, like eagles and owls can easily bridge the gap between the wires, especially if two birds are fighting while on different lines.

I have seen a bright flash on the verge of my field of view, looked that fast enough to see falling body, then heard the arch (I was about half a kilometer from the 15 kV line). There was a flock of startled Common Wood Pigeons flying in my direction, I know they often sit on these lines. So I think what have happened was that when they started one of them shorted the wires - for a pigeon this is relatively large bird.

 

[psparky]

I don't think bird don't get electrocuted because they have high resistance...

I mean we are still talking about 20kV or so. If they did somehow complete the circuit, current would pass through them.

But here is my view.

They are NOT in fact completing the circuit.

If a bird sits on a wire, there is no way that it can complete the circuit, it is just sitting on a bare wire. That wire might be hot from the passing current, but anyway this is the same as you jumping and holding the phase wire, or touching a live wire, with just one hand.

But this only goes for low power lines, like 20 kV. For 500 kV, there is a different story.

And no they do not act like a resistor. Do an experiment at home.

Take a 9 V battery, connect it to a resistor, let's say 500 ohms, and then short circuit that resistor, in parallel.

Current won't go through the resistor any more, as a poster before said, current is lazy and it wants to go through a path with less resistance, ergo your short circuit wire will get very hot.

Your bird is your resistor, and your line is your short circuit.

Well...a wire isn't actually a short circuit...it has resistance. It is just taught that way in school to make a difficult subject more understandable.

For example...when u take a 480 volt three phase phasor diagram...and you ADD the two 277 line to neutral vectors together, you get 277 volts. That doesn't make sense since we know that line to line voltage of 277 is 480. NOW...if you take phase A MINUS phase B...now you get a vector that equals 480. And when I say MINUS...that flips one of the vectors 180 degrees.

For voltage to show up on a meter, it has to be the difference between to points.

That being said you need a large voltage drop between the birds feet. Whats the length between a birds feet. 1.5 inches maybe. The wire it's sitting on is likely 1" in diameter.

How much voltage drop occurs between that 1.5 inches? Not a lot...

I don't have a code book handy, but let's say that the line has a resistance .005 ohms per 1.5 inches. I believe a one inch line in diameter can hold about 1,000 amps.

Using the old V=IR...005 X 1000 = 5 volts...less than a nine volt battery...bird doesn't feel a thing.

Hmmmm...notice that I have not even considered the voltage of the line. Amps are amps...ohms are ohms.

Think about that...even the vets on this site. I think Jim Hardy said they don't stand on lines higher than 40 KV. I think this may be more of the magnetic field ticklilng their feet then the voltage. The voltage matters when you are line to line.

I say that if you have a 1" diameter line with .005 ohms per 1.5 inch...with 1,000 amps thru it...the bird feels the same voltage whether the line is 2,400 volts...or 240,000 volts.

V=IR in either case.

Just throwing out ideas here...that make some logical sense. Feel free to comment.

 

[Bassalisk]

Well...a wire isn't actually a short circuit...it has resistance. It is just taught that way in school to make a difficult subject more understandable.

For example...when u take a 480 volt three phase phasor diagram...and you ADD the two 277 line to neutral vectors together, you get 277 volts. That doesn't make sense since we know that line to line voltage of 277 is 480. NOW...if you take phase A MINUS phase B...now you get a vector that equals 480. And when I say MINUS...that flips one of the vectors 180 degrees.

For voltage to show up on a meter, it has to be the difference between to points.

That being said you need a large voltage drop between the birds feet. Whats the length between a birds feet. 1.5 inches maybe. The wire it's sitting on is likely 1" in diameter.

How much voltage drop occurs between that 1.5 inches? Not a lot...

I don't have a code book handy, but let's say that the line has a resistance .005 ohms per 1.5 inches. I believe a one inch line in diameter can hold about 1,000 amps.

Using the old V=IR...005 X 1000 = 5 volts...less than a nine volt battery...bird doesn't feel a thing.

Hmmmm...notice that I have not even considered the voltage of the line. Amps are amps...ohms are ohms.

Think about that...even the vets on this site. I think Jim Hardy said they don't stand on lines higher than 40 KV. I think this may be more of the magnetic field ticklilng their feet then the voltage. The voltage matters when you are line to line

I say that if you have a 1" diameter line with .005 ohms per 1.5 inch...with 1,000 amps thru it...the bird feels the same voltage whether the line is 2,400 volts...or 240,000 volts.

V=IR in either case.

Just throwing out ideas here...that make some logical sense. Feel free to comment.

I am well aware of that. But bird is approximately 20 cm thick. A power line has internal resistance of roughly 0,3 ohms/km(only counting the active). So internal resistance of 20 cm is 0,00006 Ohms.

A human has resistance around 1-3kOhms. Let's say bird has half of that. For my engineering purposes, I call that short circuit.(the power line)

Of course I didn't mean a short circuit like in the high school. But what do you call a solo wire that is going in parallel with resistor?

 

[psparky]

I hear ya...but we can't call it a short in this case. The resistance of the "short" is inducing a difference in potential (a voltage drop if you will) resulting in a trickle current thru the bird!

 

[Bassalisk]

I hear ya...but we can't call it a short in this case. The resistance of the "short" is inducing a difference in potential resulting in a trickle current thru the bird!

Agreed. Bird has to be at same potential as the power line right? So maybe 20 pAmps go through bird? Is that what you are saying?

 

[psparky]

I think so...The voltage drop between the birds feet due to the resistance of the wire is the voltage the bird feels. That voltage drop then reacts to the birds resistance...then inducing the 20 pico amps.

To sum of my point of view.

V=IR :)

 

[Bassalisk]

I think so...The voltage drop between the birds feet due to the resistance of the wire is the voltage the bird feels. That voltage then reacts to the birds resistance...then inducing the 20 pico amps.

To sum of my point of view.

V=IR :)

I might even ask my professor about this. Is this current significantly larger when we are talking about 500 kV power lines? Thats why the get roasted?

 

[psparky]

And to correct myself earlier, the voltage (above 40 K) shouldn't really effect the magetic field since the amps are 1,000 in either case.

But somehow it does...voltage does crazy stuff when it gets really high.

It's amazing how much you can learn just by typing on your keyboard and this forum. Really makes you think!

 

[psparky]

I might even ask my professor about this. Is this current significantly larger when we are talking about 500 kV power lines? Thats why they get roasted?

Absolutely not.

A 1" diameter wire will carry roughly 1,000 amps whether it is a 1 volt line or a...

1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 volt line.

Wire size is the same for any voltage assuming the current is the same. The only thing that changes is the size of the insulator around the wire (when talking about commercial buildings and such...not open air conductors) I would assume the metal might have to be different to withstand super high voltage...but again...amps are amps.

 

[psparky]

Keep in mind that the whole purpose of high voltage lines is to keep the amps as low as possible...while making the same power.

Lower amps means lower wire size...which means less money.

And money is pretty much the reason behind everything.

 

[Bassalisk]

Keep in mind that the whole purpose of high voltage lines is to keep the amps as low as possible...while making the same power.

Lower amps means lower wire size...which means less money.

And money is pretty much the reason behind everything.

Yes yes I know that. Joule losses. But why do they get roasted at 500k power line?

 

[psparky]

Yes yes I know that. Joule losses. But why do they get roasted at 500k power line?

Who says they do get roasted on a 500 KV line?

If they do...I'm not sure why. Even if the current was 5 times larger I don't think it would be enough make a big enough voltage across their feet.

Perhaps there is something we are missing, but my explanation above sounds pretty good.

Anyone else?

 

[psparky]

when a bird lands on a wire he will be at the same voltage as that wire. so only enough current flows into bird to raise him to that voltage.
so long as that current is less than he can feel in his feet, he'll be unaware.

if you notice, birds typically avoid wires more than about 40kv. it tickles their feet.

we had a 500 kv line through the swamp. every evening about dusk there'd be faults, which were traced to big wading swamp birds roosting on the steel crosarms above the wire. if you've ever seen one of those birds 'poop', well it's a stream rather like a garden hose. should the bird be right over the wire when he goes, he gets vaporized with a big flash.
the transmission folks welded uncomfortable plates to crossarms right over the wires so the birds would roost a few feet away.

old jim

Is this the post you are reffereing to birds frying at 500 KV?

If so, it's because the bird is pooping to a lower wire...therefore inducing a line to line voltage.

Completing the circuit if you will.

 

[Bassalisk]

Is this the post you are reffereing to birds frying at 500 KV?

If so, it's because the bird is pooping to a lower wire...therefore inducing a line to line voltage.

Completing the circuit if you will.

Yes this is the post. Because of line voltage?

 

[psparky]

Yes this is the post. Because of line voltage?

That is factually correct. He says they **** a stream.

The bird might as well have it's mouth on one line and its wet *** on the other.

500KV across the bird.

What's resistance of a bird? 100 ohms maybe?

500,000 volts divided by 100 equals 500 amps thru it's body.

That'll leave a mark. Takes .1 amp to kill a human for reference.

 

[Bassalisk]

That is factually correct. He says they **** a stream.

The bird might as well have it's mouth on one line and its wet *** on the other.

500KV across the bird.

What's resistance of a bird? 100 ohms maybe?

500,000 volts divided by 100 equals 500 amps thru it's body.

That'll leave a mark. Takes .1 amp to kill a human for reference.

Oh so these power lines are actually close? so they can complete the circuit?

 

[psparky]

Incidentally, the line to neutral voltage of the said 500 KV line is...289KV.

Think about it.

 

[cmb]

There seems to be a lot of mis-information being allowed to go uncorrected here.

A bird that flies directly to a power line and grabs it makes no circuit. Therefore its resistance is immaterial (or futile, if you want a pun).

But what does happen is that it will become charged to the potential of the line. Assume bird is at 0 potential with respect to ground (just flown off of the ground) then it will need to receive enough charge to raise its potential to the line potential.

It will have a capacitance. Let's make a guess here, I'd say it's free-space capacitance is a bit like a sphere, let's call it 1pF. To charge to 500kV requires energy in the amount of 1/2.[5e5]^2.[1e-12] = ~0.1 J.

I reckon you'd not really feel a discharge much less than 0.5 to 1 J, but you'd likely feel a bit of a spark at that level. Maybe birds do feel it, but they get their kicks from landing on such wires.

Here resistance does play a part. That capacitance represents a total of Q=CV, or ~ a microCoulomb of charge. If that discharges in a microsecond then the bird would get an Amp of current. Again, it might not notice that anyhow, because the total energy in the pulse is small. If the bird's grip and its legs are a lower resistance, then the charge-up would be slower and the current lower.

To see how this charge-up process actually works, you should go looking for youtube videos of the guys that work on these wires - live - from helicopters. The helicopter comes up to the line and the guy on the back holds out a probe to faciliate charging up of the helicopter to the line potential. You see a spark of a few seconds duration flowing between the probe and the power line, then the guy hooks a wire onto the line, to maintain the potential, then he does his work. Those guys must be on serious danger money (because of the height - the voltage is immaterial so long as you respect it), some jobs they actually clip onto the lines and crawl off the helicopter onto the lines, and shimmy up it. A hat-tip to live helo power-line workers!

 

[psparky]

Oh so these power lines are actually close? so they can complete the circuit?

Wait a second here...

 

[Bassalisk]

There seems to be a lot of mis-information being allowed to go uncorrected here.

A bird that flies directly to a power line and grabs it makes no circuit. Therefore its resistance is immaterial (or futile, if you want a pun).

But what does happen is that it will become charged to the potential of the line. Assume bird is at 0 potential with respect to ground (just flown off of the ground) then it will need to receive enough charge to raise its potential to the line potential.

It will have a capacitance. Let's make a guess here, I'd say it's free-space capacitance is a bit like a sphere, let's call it 1pF. To charge to 500kV requires energy in the amount of 1/2.[5e5]^2.[1e-12] = ~0.1 J.

I reckon you'd not really feel a discharge much less than 0.5 to 1 J, but you'd likely feel a bit of a spark at that level. Maybe birds do feel it, but they get their kicks from landing on such wires.

Here resistance does play a part. That capacitance represents a total of Q=CV, or ~ a microCoulomb of charge. If that discharges in a microsecond then the bird would get an Amp of current. Again, it might not notice that anyhow, because the total energy in the pulse is small. If the bird's grip and its legs are a lower resistance, then the charge-up would be slower and the current lower.

To see how this charge-up process actually works, you should go looking for youtube videos of the guys that work on these wires - live - from helicopters. The helicopter comes up to the line and the guy on the back holds out a probe to faciliate charging up of the helicopter to the line potential. You see a spark of a few seconds duration flowing between the probe and the power line, then the guy hooks a wire onto the line, to maintain the potential, then he does his work. Those guys must be on serious danger money (because of the height - the voltage is immaterial so long as you respect it), some jobs they actually clip onto the lines and crawl off the helicopter onto the lines, and shimmy up it. A hat-tip to live helo power-line workers!

I always wondered why there was a huge spark between that probe and the line. Is it because the probe is initial at 0 potential with respect the to power line? And whole chopper is at 0 potential?

 

[cmb]

Here's a clear show of the helo linesmen at work;

 

[psparky]

There seems to be a lot of mis-information being allowed to go uncorrected here.

A bird that flies directly to a power line and grabs it makes no circuit. Therefore its resistance is immaterial (or futile, if you want a pun).

But what does happen is that it will become charged to the potential of the line. Assume bird is at 0 potential with respect to ground (just flown off of the ground) then it will need to receive enough charge to raise its potential to the line potential.

It will have a capacitance. Let's make a guess here, I'd say it's free-space capacitance is a bit like a sphere, let's call it 1pF. To charge to 500kV requires energy in the amount of 1/2.[5e5]^2.[1e-12] = ~0.1 J.

I reckon you'd not really feel a discharge much less than 0.5 to 1 J, but you'd likely feel a bit of a spark at that level. Maybe birds do feel it, but they get their kicks from landing on such wires.

Here resistance does play a part. That capacitance represents a total of Q=CV, or ~ a microCoulomb of charge. If that discharges in a microsecond then the bird would get an Amp of current. Again, it might not notice that anyhow, because the total energy in the pulse is small. If the bird's grip and its legs are a lower resistance, then the charge-up would be slower and the current lower.

To see how this charge-up process actually works, you should go looking for youtube videos of the guys that work on these wires - live - from helicopters. The helicopter comes up to the line and the guy on the back holds out a probe to faciliate charging up of the helicopter to the line potential. You see a spark of a few seconds duration flowing between the probe and the power line, then the guy hooks a wire onto the line, to maintain the potential, then he does his work. Those guys must be on serious danger money (because of the height - the voltage is immaterial so long as you respect it), some jobs they actually clip onto the lines and crawl off the helicopter onto the lines, and shimmy up it. A hat-tip to live helo power-line workers!

Cool stuff.

 

[cmb]

Is it because the probe is initial at 0 potential with respect the to power line? And whole chopper is at 0 potential?

I think you mean to ask if the probe is at +/-500kV. Yes.

The other thing to note is that the AC potential is, well, AC. The current discharge is therefore continuous AC until they are clipped on, because the helo acts as a capacitor drawing + then - charge on each cycle of the AC on the line. Once clipped on, the helo and the guys are both bouncing up and down through 500kV AC, with respect to ground, 50 [or 60, dependent on network] times a second. That's why they have to 'probe off' as they leave the line, as well as when they come up to the line.

 

[psparky]

I'm assuming those three lines are phase A for example?

 

[Bassalisk]

I'm assuming those three lines are phase A for example?

Yes I was wondering too. Because when I saw him touching all 3 I was like :O

 

[psparky]

Yes I was wondering too. Because when I saw him touching all 3 I was like :O

CMB...I'm assuming you have a physics background. EE's don't think much in the way of charge or capacitance. We tend to run from that stuff!

Also, you explanation is clearly better, but I believe my V=IR explanation still holds true.

 

[cmb]

I'm assuming those three lines are phase A for example?

Clearly!

If I were designing power lines [I don't, but just thinking it through], I'd really want redundancy in each phase. This strikes me as being essential because if one single line were to fail mechanically, you'd still get power transmission if there were multiple lines.

However, if one phase were to drop out, then you are in biiiig doggy doo-doo, if it is a network link. This is because you'd likely get a sudden phase-change in the link and where the next link in the network meets it there would be a phase error. This would trip the next link. That in turn puts a bigger load on the next link, which changes its phase, tripping out the next link, etc., etc.. I believe this is what happened in California a few years back, one link went down from overloading and it dragged all the others it was connected to down with it.

This is one of the highly beneficial engineering advantages of HVDC transmission as network distance links - there are no possible phase errors.

The other thing to bear in mind is that the skin depth of copper at 60 Hz is 8.5mm, so there is no point in having 60Hz AC power lines greater than 17mm in diameter. So in the video you see 3 ~17mm wide conductors. Wider conductors would be just a waste of copper, as the conduction losses would be exactly the same as a 17mm diameter conductor. So, for a given power transmission (viz. a given current) you need a certain multiple of 17mm diameter copper cables, rather than one big diameter one.

 

[jim hardy]

thinking real simply

let's take your 1 pf
and charge it to 500 kv

Q = CV = 1E-12 X 5E5 = 5E-7 Coulomb

that charge moves 120 times per second (it's 60 hz ac)

5E-7 Coulomb X 120 /sec= 60 microamps

so a current on order of 60 ua /pf will flow into anything connected to a 500 kv line.
and that's why a tiny current flows into a bird's feet - to charge the small capacitance of his body up to line voltage.


In my tinkering with old analog meters i figured out that my threshold of feeling electric current is somewhere around fifty micro-amps.
a quick google gave widely varied numbers for human body capacitance, generally in tens of picofarads. How to guesstimate a bird?


Linemen i knew wore a cloth suit with conductive fibers in it and the whole suit gets charged to line voltage. That way the current flows in the suit not him, else he wouldn't be able to hold his tools.


As to those swamp birds - sorry for the lack of clarity. The wires were about twelve feet below the steel crossarm where the birds roosted, and when a big heron emits a stream that's right over the conductor - well - flash bang he completes the circuit!