Anti the Anti-Vaxers

  • Thread starter BillTre
  • Start date
  • Featured
28,493
4,837
Yes I fully agree.
I am not sure how you can claim to fully agree based on what you have written. As yet you have failed to consider the benefit and continue to invalidly consider only the risk.
 
Last edited:
Orodruin
Staff Emeritus
Science Advisor
Homework Helper
Insights Author
Gold Member
2018 Award
16,134
6,066
I do not think anybody has ever argued that persons with adverse reactions to a vaccine or others (such as people with autoimune diseases) that have valid medical reasons should be forced to undergo vaccination. However, you should not be allowed to reject your own vaccination (or your child’s) on the basis of another individual not being able to undergo vaccination without adverse effect (for example, some people may be allergic to components of the vaccine - questions about these things are standard in a pre-vaccination health declaration). As Dale said, it is even more important that people around such individuals are immunized.
 
38
6
I am not sure how you can claim to fully agree based on what you have written when you as yet have failed to consider the benefit and continue to invalidly consider only the risk.
Because, I feel that you have begun understanding, that I am not a anti-wax person.

I have not claimed anywhere in this debate, that vaccines are a bad thing, only that it should not be forced upon people.
My example have from the beginning been, that a person who experience serious side-effects, can choose not to continue, without beeing punished in some way, like beeing isolated from society.

I am perhaps not the best to formulate things, but I have had a feeling, that you, and others, have misjudged my reason to this debate from the beginning. All my arguments have been based on a person who starts the program.

So if want you are saying, that there exist legetimate reasons to not continue vaccination already begun, then we agree.
 
phinds
Science Advisor
Insights Author
Gold Member
15,554
5,204
My example have from the beginning been, that a person who experience serious side-effects, can choose not to continue, without beeing punished in some way, like beeing isolated from society.
So you are fine with someone who is not vaccinated just wandering around potentially infecting others? I'm not and I think the point of most of the posts in this thread is that neither is anyone else here except you. I don't care WHY someone is not vaccinated, I don't want them wandering around compromising our herd immunity.
 
28,493
4,837
Because, I feel that you have begun understanding, that I am not a anti-wax person.
My principle objection is to your invalid reasoning, not to you as a person. Unfortunately, your invalid reasoning, which you have not corrected, is a common fallacious argument used by the anti-vaccination movement.
 
Orodruin
Staff Emeritus
Science Advisor
Homework Helper
Insights Author
Gold Member
2018 Award
16,134
6,066
Then you are fighting a strawman argument. Nobody has suggested to vaccinate in cases where there are legitimate reasons not to. You have also repeatedly argued for an individual choice. This to me is incompatible with claiming that you have a person who suffers from allergy to the vaccine or similar. That person does not have a choice either!

So you are fine with someone who is not vaccinated just wandering around potentially infecting others? I'm not and I think the point of most of the posts in this thread is that neither is anyone else here except you. I don't care WHY someone is not vaccinated, I don't want them wandering around compromising our herd immunity.
This is a silly argument. It is because of the people who do not have the medical option to vaccinate themselves that we need herd immunity in the first place.
 
38
6
I do not think anybody has ever argued that persons with adverse reactions to a vaccine or others (such as people with autoimune diseases) that have valid medical reasons should be forced to undergo vaccination. However, you should not be allowed to reject your own vaccination (or your child’s) on the basis of another individual not being able to undergo vaccination without adverse effect (for example, some people may be allergic to components of the vaccine - questions about these things are standard in a pre-vaccination health declaration). As Dale said, it is even more important that people around such individuals are immunized.

Since so many misunderstand, its problaby my ability to formulate myself clearly that is the problem.

I am pro a society can have norms, rules and medical programs.

I am pro vaccination.

All my inputs have been based on the right to deny to continue an already started vaccination program.
 
28,493
4,837
You have also repeatedly argued for an individual choice. This to me is incompatible with claiming that you have a person who suffers from allergy to the vaccine or similar. That person does not have a choice either!
Well said. This cannot be a matter of individual choice. Eradication of diseases has already been delayed or compromised by this insanity.
 
38
6
So you are fine with someone who is not vaccinated just wandering around potentially infecting others? I'm not and I think the point of most of the posts in this thread is that neither is anyone else here except you. I don't care WHY someone is not vaccinated, I don't want them wandering around compromising our herd immunity.
Yes I am fine with that, until the person gets sick, and when a doctor declares them well, they shoul be allowed back in society again.
 
russ_watters
Mentor
19,016
5,168
Perhaps you are willing to risk your kids health, after you experience severe complications simultaneous with the vaccine, I would not.
Well, I will say that people who have been on the wrong side of extremely bad luck are among a rare few who are allowed to be irrational on the subject of that bad luck. But that does not mean governments should allow them to act irrationally, particularly when it comes to endangering the health of others, especially children. I sympathize, but also wish to help protect you and others from further negative consequences from that experience.
 
Last edited:
pinball1970
Gold Member
619
574
Yes I am fine with that, until the person gets sick, and when a doctor declares them well, they shoul be allowed back in society again.
By the time they are Ill they are walking round infecting people, possibly your child who has an underlying condition.
If you are immunised the virus is attacked as soon as it enters the body and does not get a chance to complete it's life cycle to be passed on to the next host.
 
BWV
532
435
Stick a fork in this one, arguing with anti-vaxxers is as much use as arguing with creationists or holocaust deniers. A lot of great responses that appear lost on Mr E there
 
phinds
Science Advisor
Insights Author
Gold Member
15,554
5,204
Stick a fork in this one, arguing with anti-vaxxers is as much use as arguing with creationists or holocaust deniers. A lot of great responses that appear lost on Mr E there
Yeah, it's pretty amazing that this thread has gone on for this long. It's clearly WAY past the point of diminishing returns.
 
Centers of Disease Control and Prevention:

People of all ages need tetanus vaccines!
https://stacks.cdc.gov/view/cdc/58994
Some excerpts from MedlinePlus:

“Finding better ways of educating the world is the best vaccine out there.”:smile:
[excerpt}

4 Spring 2008 NIH MedlinePlus

Vaccines Stop Illness To prevent the spread of disease, it is more important than ever to vaccinate your child.
Vaccine Safety In light of recent questions about vaccine safety, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) has offered the following information for parents: “Vaccines are held to the highest standard of safety. The United States currently has the safest, most effective vaccine supply in history. Law requires years of testing before a vaccine can be licensed. Once in use, vaccines are continually monitored for safety and efficacy. Immunizations, like any medication, can cause side effects. However, a decision not to immunize a child also involves risk. It is a decision to put the child and others who come into contact with him or her at risk of contracting a disease that could be dangerous or deadly. The CDC and the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) continually work to make already safe vaccines even safer.” In the rare event that a vaccine injures a child, he or she may be compensated through the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program (VICP); call 1-800-338-2382.”
https://magazine.medlineplus.gov/pdf/spring2008.pdf

It has been a rough day for me. I need a cup of hot tea! I'm tired too much drama.
 
BillTre
Science Advisor
Gold Member
2018 Award
1,199
2,156
More data:
This NY Times article on the HPV (Herpes Papilliloma Virus) vaccine discusses a Lancet article involving studies in several countries. It shows the rates of infections, genital and anal warts, and precancerous lesions in young women and girls.
The decreases among the immunized varied between about 1/3 and 2/3 depending on the group of people and the result being looked at.
Herd immunity aspects are also discussed.
 
pinball1970
Gold Member
619
574
More data:
This NY Times article on the HPV (Herpes Papilliloma Virus) vaccine discusses a Lancet article involving studies in several countries. It shows the rates of infections, genital and anal warts, and precancerous lesions in young women and girls.
The decreases among the immunized varied between about 1/3 and 2/3 depending on the group of people and the result being looked at.
Herd immunity aspects are also discussed.
It's not worth a $500 guitar tho according @dr Courtney....

That was not a low blow, his religious/moral position means he/his family have practically zero risk.

I assume he would be in the vax camp on MMR
 
Hello everyone:smile:

It occurred to me that my Coonhound Gracie has the following:
Leptospirosis Annual Immunization
Bordetella Immunization
Rattlesnake Annual Immunization
Rabies 3 year Immunization
Distemper & Parvo 3 year immunization

Merlina my cat is pretty much in the house except when I walk her on leash in my outdoor garden. I also have a large indoor atrium in the house she plays in. She does get a small dose of shots every year but Gracie the hound has a lot more shots!:smile::wink:

I hope everyone has a great day. I have to walk the hound at the park.
 
Last edited:
russ_watters
Mentor
19,016
5,168
Grazyna Medynski believes rabies vaccines are dangerous.

She cites her three pets as examples: Her cat Doeno has a twitch, her dog Max had a painful eruption, and her other dog Min is now afraid to go up and down stairs.
Fortunately, Mean and Median are doing ok.
 
Core Vaccines
Recommended or required by state law because they protect against prevalent, life-threatening or zoonotic diseases such as rabies.
•Parvovirus
•Distemper
•Adenovirus-2
•Rabies
Non-Core Vaccines
Optional, recommended according to an animal’s risk of exposure and lifestyle considerations.
•Parainfluenza virus
Bordetella (kennel cough)
Leptospira
•Lyme disease

Not Generally Recommended

Of limited benefit and may cause adverse events.
•Corona virus
Giardia
•Adenovirus-1
•Rattlesnake venom
Source: University of California, Davis, Center for Companion Animal Health, Fall 2006
 
Orodruin
Staff Emeritus
Science Advisor
Homework Helper
Insights Author
Gold Member
2018 Award
16,134
6,066
For those interested, the Guardian today has an opinion piece written by an MSF doctor that personally witnessed the horrors of a measles outbreak.
 
pinball1970
Gold Member
619
574
1,437
774
For those interested, the Guardian today has an opinion piece written by an MSF doctor that personally witnessed the horrors of a measles outbreak.
Good (?) one.

My favorite killing move is this cemetery from a legendary age. A bit hard to read the text on the table but worth the effort for making a fast statistics.
 
Orodruin
Staff Emeritus
Science Advisor
Homework Helper
Insights Author
Gold Member
2018 Award
16,134
6,066
A big part of the problem is that people nowadays are unaware of the effects and dangers of diseases such as measles. I have a personal story where I was talking to an anti-vaxer who was arguing to not vaccinate his child. His argument was that he had never heard of anybody among his family or friends that had died from measles so I went online and did some digging for references. Measles had been declared eradicated in his home country through vaccination programs a couple of years before his birth ...

Of course, this is the ultimate goal, but on a global level. Once a disease has been globally eradicated there is no point in vaccinating against it. Children today are not vaccinated against smallpox because the need simply is not there. The polio eradication initiative has a post-eradication plan that includes the cessation of polio vaccination.
 

Related Threads for: Anti the Anti-Vaxers

  • Last Post
2
Replies
42
Views
3K
  • Last Post
Replies
4
Views
3K
  • Last Post
3
Replies
60
Views
9K
Replies
120
Views
7K
  • Last Post
Replies
9
Views
2K
Replies
15
Views
3K
  • Last Post
Replies
9
Views
4K
  • Last Post
3
Replies
53
Views
6K
Top