Conceptual thermodynamics problem about ammonia executing a Carnot cycle

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Homework Help Overview

The discussion revolves around a conceptual thermodynamics problem involving ammonia executing a Carnot cycle, specifically focusing on the work done during the phase change in the condenser, identified as process 2 to 3. Participants are exploring the implications of constant temperature and pressure during this process and the associated energy balance.

Discussion Character

  • Conceptual clarification, Assumption checking

Approaches and Questions Raised

  • Participants are questioning the reasoning behind the assertion that no work is done in the condenser during process 2 to 3, particularly in relation to the constant temperature and pressure conditions. They discuss the energy balance equation and the implications of phase change without expansion or compression.

Discussion Status

Some participants have provided clarifications regarding the nature of the processes involved, noting that both process 2 to 3 and the subsequent process involve only heat transfer. There is acknowledgment of the need for understanding the operational characteristics of the condenser to fully grasp why the work is zero.

Contextual Notes

Participants mention the absence of shaft work in the condenser and the potential complexities introduced by real systems, such as sub-cooling and overheating, which may affect the idealized assumptions of the Carnot cycle.

Andrew1234
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Homework Statement
Explain why the work done in process 2-3 is zero.
Relevant Equations
ΔH = ΔQ-ΔW
1586020388303.png


Is there a mathematical explanation for why the work done in the condenser (in process 2 to 3) is zero? I am aware that ammonia does not expand or compress in the condenser, only changes phase, but without knowing that the process takes place in a condenser and only considering the graph, according to which temperature is constant for process 2-3, how can it be seen that no work is done in this process?

In process 2-3 the temperature and pressure are both constant. Because the cycle is reversible, Q = ∫Tds.

Substituting this in the energy balance, -m'(Δh)+∫Tds = ΔW. Because temperature is constant, ΔW = T(Δs)-m'(Δh).

W = TΔs - ΔH = T(sf-sg) + m(hg - hf)

It is not clear to me why this quantity is zero for process 2-3.
 

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Andrew1234 said:
Homework Statement:: Explain why the work done in process 2-3 is zero.
Relevant Equations:: ΔH = ΔQ-ΔW

View attachment 259982

Is there a mathematical explanation for why the work done in the condenser (in process 2 to 3) is zero? I am aware that ammonia does not expand or compress in the condenser, only changes phase, but without knowing that the process takes place in a condenser and only considering the graph, according to which temperature is constant for process 2-3, how can it be seen that no work is done in this process?

In process 2-3 the temperature and pressure are both constant. Because the cycle is reversible, Q = ∫Tds.

Substituting this in the energy balance, -m'(Δh)+∫Tds = ΔW. Because temperature is constant, ΔW = T(Δs)-m'(Δh).

W = TΔs - ΔH = T(sf-sg) + m(hg - hf)

It is not clear to me why this quantity is zero for process 2-3.
There is no way to know unless, as in the case of a condenser, the device has no shaft that does shaft work. In other words, you need to know something about how your device works.
 
Thank you for clarifying this concept
 
Both processes, 2 to 3 and 4 to 1, have only transfer of heat.
The value of delta work in the equation ΔH = ΔQ-ΔW is always zero for these processes.
In real systems, there are sub-cooling and overheating portions besides pure change of phase in these processes.
 

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