Does the Twin Paradox Break Symmetry in the Zig-Zag Scenario?

  • #51
PeterDonis said:
Because his path through spacetime is shorter

Clocks of both the twins measure proper time.
Clock with the traveling twin traverses lesser distance in space-time,therefore lesser proper time is for the clock with the traveling twin.

But the home twin traverses bigger distance in the space-time and therefore has more proper time than traveling twin.

Is that the reason why you consider that traveling twin ages less than home-twin?
 
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  • #52
PeterDonis said:
No, because, as you go on to show in your very next sentence, the observer can change his state of motion, but the frame can't. So the observer and the frame can't be identical.
PeterDonis said:
No, he's changed his state of motion. He was at rest relative to one frame before; now he's at rest relative to another, different frame.

The only reason why you did not agree with me is that you have ignored this consideration or assumption i made:
ash64449 said:
If i consider that a reference frame which helps an observer describe 'time' at which event happen(by putting clocks all over the coordinate system),coordinates at which event happen to be his frame

You said:
PeterDonis said:
he is at rest relative to the second frame, so its measurements of time and position would correspond to his.

I assumed that when such a correspondence is produced i would "call" it observer's frame.

Since you have ignored it, i as well will ignore it. I will talk in such a manner that 'changes frame' and 'his frame' would not come next time.

PeterDonis said:
"Time" and "coordinates" are not absolutes; they depend on the coordinate chart you choose. Here you are implicitly choosing a coordinate chart corresponding to the first frame (the chart whose coordinate basis vectors are the frame vectors). The coordinates in this chart do give "times" and "positions" that would be measured by the first frame.

But you could just as easily choose a coordinate chart corresponding to the second frame (the one the observer is at rest relative to after he changes his state of motion). This chart would give "times" and "positions" that would be measured by the second frame, and after the observer changes his state of motion, he is at rest relative to the second frame, so its measurements of time and position would correspond to his.

I completely agree with you.
 
  • #53
ash64449 said:
I assumed that when such a correspondence is produced i would "call" it observer's frame.

And I was telling you that this way of speaking leads to confusion, because it doesn't keep distinct observers and frames. It looks like you are not going to use that way of speaking any longer, which was my objective in pointing all this out.
 
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  • #54
ash64449 said:
Clock with the traveling twin traverses lesser distance in space-time,therefore lesser proper time is for the clock with the traveling twin.

But the home twin traverses bigger distance in the space-time and therefore has more proper time than traveling twin.

Is that the reason why you consider that traveling twin ages less than home-twin?

Yes.
 
  • #55
It is right that twin paradox can be solved by using any frame of reference-since in any frame of reference concerned traveling twin always ages less than the home twin.

But the original reason why twin paradox arises is due to one's point of view-because each twin considers other's clock to run slower-which correspond's to one's point of view.

But it is to be understood that any frame of reference in general doesn't express one's point of view.

For example, we can describe home-twin's point of view by using a frame of reference in which the home-twin is at rest. Since home-twin is always at rest and consider him to be at the origin,frame's measurement of 'time' and position would correspond to home-twin's.

But not so for traveling twin.

For example,if we use the frame of reference in which the traveling twin is rest in the first part of the scenario, traveling twin moves in this frame of reference in the second part of the scenario.
Similarly,we cannot use a frame of reference in which traveling twin is rest in the second part of the scenario.(i.e either frame unable to express traveling twin's point of view)

To express what i am saying, i am going to state what 'paradox' does twin paradox presents.

To keep the calculations simple,

Let the distance between the Earth and planet be 8 light years.(rest length between them)
Let speed of the traveling twin(TT) be 0.8c in both part's of the scenario.

Now the factor 'gamma' is 1/0.6

Now let the Home Twin (HT) calculate the time TT take to come back according to his point of view.Since the frame he uses has distance between the planet and Earth as 8 light years and speed is 0.8c,
Time taken by the TT to reach the planet is 10 years according to HT.
Consequently, Total time to reach the Earth is 20 years. So according to HT, TT takes 20 years to reach earth.
Now the HT makes calculations how much time TT would take for the same.

In the frame HT uses, TT is moving and hence time runs slower for TT. So HT predicts TT would measure 20*0.6=12 years to reach earth. And hence concludes that in between the events 'TT leaves the earth' and 'TT reaches the earth', proper time elapsed for TT is 12 years and proper time elapsed for HT is 20 years and hence TT is 8 years younger than HT.

Now let us go for the calculation of TT

In TT's point of view, Earth and the planet are moving and hence represent moving length. the length is 8*0.6=4.8 light years.

Speed of both planet and Earth is 0.8c, Therefore time taken for TT to reach planet is 4.8/0.8=6 years and therefore 12 years to reach the Earth for TT-same as predicted by HT.

Now TT calculates how much time HT measures for the same from his point of view.

According to TT, HT is moving. So time is running slower for HT. In all parts of the journey, it is the HT that moves, therefore time measured by HT should be 12*0.6=7.2 years for HT. So TT calculates elapsed proper time for him is 12 years but for HT is 7.2 years Therefore HT is 4.8 years younger that TT.This is the manner how both get contradicting result. Each predicts the other one should be younger.So the solution to the paradox should be given which includes one's point of view. Since the calculation error comes when one predicts the elapsed proper time of the other from his point.

Error is in the analysis on TT's and not HT. In fact HT's point of view is same as that of calculations made in a frame of reference where HT is rest.

But not for TT. TT's point of view can't be explained by any single frame since he is always moving in one part of the scenario or the other in whatever frame of reference one takes.

So original question of twin paradox should be: 'What is the error in the analysis of the age of the HT done by TT'?
 
  • #56
ash64449 said:
if we use the frame of reference in which the traveling twin is rest in the first part of the scenario, traveling twin moves in this frame of reference in the second part of the scenario.

This is only true if we use inertial frames. But that is not required. We can use a non-inertial frame (more precisely, a non-inertial coordinate chart) in which the traveling twin is at rest the whole time. But the metric in this chart will be different than it would be for an inertial chart, so when we use this non-inertial chart to calculate the elapsed proper time for the traveling twin and the home twin, we find that the home twin still experiences more elapsed time.

ash64449 said:
This is the manner how both get contradicting result. Each predicts the other one should be younger.

The HT's calculation is correct, because he is calculating the length of the entire path through spacetime followed by the TT. But the TT's calculation is not correct, because he is not calculating the length of the entire path through spacetime of the HT. There is a section of the HT's path that is not covered by the TT's calculation because of the change in simultaneity convention when the TT turns around.

I highly recommend reading the Usenet Physics FAQ article on the twin paradox:

http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Relativity/SR/TwinParadox/twin_paradox.html

Pay particular attention to the Spacetime Diagram Analysis; it clearly shows how everything fits together, and what is missing in the TT's analysis that you have described.
 
  • #57
PeterDonis said:
This is only true if we use inertial frames. But that is not required. We can use a non-inertial frame (more precisely, a non-inertial coordinate chart) in which the traveling twin is at rest the whole time. But the metric in this chart will be different than it would be for an inertial chart, so when we use this non-inertial chart to calculate the elapsed proper time for the traveling twin and the home twin, we find that the home twin still experiences more elapsed time.
This method of treatment is new to me.

PeterDonis said:
No, they don't. The HT's calculation is correct

Yes. I did say HT's calculation is correct. As i said here :
ash64449 said:
Error is in the analysis on TT's and not HT
PeterDonis said:
There is a section of the HT's path that is not covered by the TT's calculation because of the change in simultaneity convention when the TT turns around.

I actually know the answer! i was trying to say that This paradox's error should be pointed out from one's point of view.

But definitely the answer i thought was also due to change in simultaneity convention but method is not in terms of space-time diagram analysis.
 
  • #58
ash64449 said:
This paradox's error should be pointed out from one's point of view.

I'm not sure exactly what "one's point of view" means, but it seems to me that pointing out to the TT that his calculation leaves out a portion of the HT's worldline should count as pointing out his error "from his point of view".

ash64449 said:
method is not in terms of space-time diagram analysis.

You can use any method you like, as long as you get the right answer. If the TT does an analysis that leaves out a portion of the HT's worldline, he is not going to get the right answer, so whatever method he is using is wrong.
 
  • #59
PeterDonis said:
non-inertial frame (more precisely, a non-inertial coordinate chart) in which the traveling twin is at rest the whole time.

I don't think this is absolutely necessary. I mean what is the reason why we want TT rest the whole time?

Because we want to describe his point of view. The technique you think is not familiar to me. But i do know that switching frames helps to describe one's point of view.( here to describe TT's point of view, for the first part of the scenario,frame of reference in which Earth and the planet are moving towards the left. Second part of the scenario: frame of reference in which Earth and the planet move towards the right)

This helps us to understand the change in simultaneity convention satisfactorily to solve twin paradox.
 
  • #60
ash64449 said:
switching frames helps to describe one's point of view

If you're willing to accept that the TT's "point of view" can switch simultaneity conventions instantly, sure.

You also have to ignore the portions of the TT's trip where he is accelerating, not inertial--for any real scenario, the TT's turnaround will take a finite time, during which he is accelerating and so is not at rest in any inertial frame. During these times, the only way to describe the TT as being at rest is to use non-inertial coordinates. And once you've admitted that you need to do that, why not just construct a non-inertial coordinate chart in which the TT is at rest the whole time?
 
  • #61
PeterDonis said:
I'm not sure exactly what "one's point of view" means

Well, for example each one sees other one's clock to run slower.( "We" can see that happen when we analyse same thing in a different frame,but that is not object's point of view)
PeterDonis said:
his calculation leaves out a portion of the HT's worldline should count as pointing out his error "from his point of view".
yes. agreed.

EDIT: I don't understand how that attached file came from. I had problems while quoting your messages.
 
  • #62
PeterDonis said:
If you're willing to accept that the TT's "point of view" can switch simultaneity conventions instantly, sure

Well, that's the most important part of my method of solution. His simultaneity convention changes at the turn around But definitely not the method your talking about i used.(the non-inertial chart you are talking about)

PeterDonis said:
You also have to ignore the portions of the TT's trip where he is accelerating, not inertial--for any real scenario,

Yes. in fact i have ignored that. we can introduce situation in twin paradox in which acceleration is ignored but rest remain the same.

PeterDonis said:
the only way to describe the TT as being at rest is to use non-inertial coordinates.

OK. It is a method. It is the only way if we there is a condition that i have to stick to the same co-ordinates the whole time.

But there is another method to make TT at rest. This involves switching between two inertial frames that helps TT to be at rest.

Note: the only reason why switching frame is needed is to describe one's point of view. But if that's not the case, Then there are chances you get error because we must stick to the same frame of reference for any calculation,except those calculation which describe one's point of view(for example, we can take a frame in which Earth and planet are moving towards the left and TT at rest initially and solve twin paradox but it does not solve the problem addressed by me " what is the error in the analysis of TT's point of view"?)
 
  • #63
Emboldened by Peter's essay on frames versus coordinates, I thought of producing a little essay on the relationship between my post #31 and Peter's #35 (along the way making terminology consistent between these posts). However, I think the a more important concept to address is the pervasive (and false) idea that it is reasonable for a non-inertial observer to assume distant positions and times correspond to those of an inertial observer momentarily co-located and stationary with respect to the non-inertial observer. This gets at some of the same issues as my prior plan, but with a more physical slant.

The first thing to ask is how does an inertial observer get from a local frame as described in #35 to a global, natural, coordinate system (which, in SR, is often called - sloppily - a global inertial frame, rather than an inertial coordinate system)? There are actually several ways, which all happen to produce the same result for the inertial observer. Simultaneity can be established with Einstein's simultaneity procedure. Distances can either be measured by two way light speed or rulers matched to a standard ruler, or by parallax. For inertial observers, it doesn't matter what (reasonable) procedure you choose, the result will be the same. One way to conceptualize the resulting coordinates is a grid of clocks connected by stiff springs that are never under tension or compression (in a moment it will be clear why specify this rather than rulers). The clocks, once synchronized, keep mutually consistent time (comparing them any time later shows they are in synch, accounting for light delays). Obviously, you don't actually construct such a thing, but you certainly would think reasonable coordinates would be equivalent to such a thing. A fundamental point is that the equivalence of different procedures produces a unique natural choice.

Then, you should ask, what are reasonable (global) coordinates for a non-inertial observer? The surprising answer (expanded on below), is that there aren't any! A little more precisely, there are many possible choices, but none of them satisfy the expectations you might have from the inertial case. Further, each fails in different ways, so there is none to prefer. As a result, there is simply no fixed meaning to be attached to a statement like "how far away is that distant object" for a non-inertial observe. The best you can do is say: "choosing to use procedure x (rather than y), the distance is blah". Even more surprisingly, while available procedures include radar ranging and parallax, one that is not available for all non-inertial observers is rulers!

Ok, so let's try by build physically motivated coordinates for a non-inertial observer. One might assume we can posit a grid of clocks connected by springs such that the springs don't stretch or compress. We allow that each clock is independently propelled as needed, to achieve this. We don't even worry, for now, about synchronizing the clocks. The question is, can we set up such a grid for a rocket that starts at rest and accelerates [edit: and turns], then coasts. The surprising answer is no, this is impossible, in principle in SR! The relevant theorem is Herglotz-Noether. Thus, the most basic concept of what a coordinate grid means is unachievable for a [edit: some ] non-inertial observer. There are different ways of understanding this, but one way is that trying to apply the constraint that the springs don't stretch or compress requires that some clocks move super-luminally (or worse, backwards in time). This same theorem implies that the concept of a long rigid ruler for a [edit: general] non-inertial observer does not exist, even conceptually.

On recognizing that it is impossible to build rigid grid coordinates for a non-inertial observer, what can you do? The two most common choices are radar coodinates or Fermi-Normal coordinates (developed for GR but useful for non-inertial observers in SR). At laboratory scales (or within a rocket), they are identical to plausible experimental precision. Radar coordinates are operationally defined and can be extended globally as long as the defining observer's world line is inertial before some event, and inertial after some event. The beginning and end inertial motions need not be the same. Fermi-Normal coordinates try to glue together momentarily co-moving inertial coordinates, to the extent that it is possible. As implied by Herglotz-Noether, this has a few unexpected consequences:

1) A world line of constant position, varying coordinate time, will not generally represent a timelike world line (this is a consequence of the impossibility of a rigid ruler per Herglotz-Noether).
2) To produce a valid coordinate chart (e.g. to avoid multiply labeling events), the coverage of the coordinates may be very limited. For a zigzag trajectory, they will be limited to a world tube around the origin.
 
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  • #64
PeterDonis said:
why not just construct a non-inertial coordinate chart in which the TT is at rest the whole time?

How to construct such non-inertial coordinate chart? is it the same as space-time diagram analysis?
 
  • #65
ash64449 said:
each one sees other one's clock to run slower.

It depends on what you mean by "see".

If you mean what each one actually sees, literally, with their eyes or a telescope (or a measuring device that detects Doppler shifts), then they will each see the other's clock running slower if they are moving away from each other, but they will each see the other's clock running faster if they are moving towards each other.

If you mean what each one calculates after correcting the above observations for light travel time, then the result depends on what kind of coordinates they are using. If each one is using inertial coordinates in which he is at rest, then yes, each one will "see" (calculate) the other's clock to be running slower. But if they decide to use some other coordinates, that might not be the case. There is no absolute fact of the matter about relative clock rates for spatially separated observers; the only absolute facts of the matter are about the elapsed times each one experiences on their own clocks when following particular paths through spacetime.

ash64449 said:
that's the most important part of my method of solution. His simultaneity convention changes at the turn around

But this "most important part" of your method is also the part that makes the TT's calculation of the HT's elapsed time wrong. The change in simultaneity convention at the turnaround is what causes the TT to leave out a portion of the HT's worldline in his calculations.
 
  • #66
PeterDonis said:
But this "most important part" of your method is also the part that makes the TT's calculation of the HT's elapsed time wrong. The change in simultaneity convention at the turnaround is what causes the TT to leave out a portion of the HT's worldline in his calculations.

333px-Twin_Paradox_Minkowski_Diagram.svg.png


This is an image in the Wikipedia article "twin paradox".

You see that there is a portion left out(in between the red lines and blue lines), I think you are talking about this.

I think i will describe my solution to Twin paradox and that will help to find out what you and I was actually trying to say.

Now error in the analysis of TT's point of view in the calculation of HT's age is this- He ignored Relativity Of simultaneity that leads to non-synchronization of the clocks of Earth and the planet.

Now When TT started the journey, Both the TT's clock and HT's clocks read zero. But when TT left, From his point of view(use an inertial frame where both Earth and planet are moving to describe TT's point of view), Clocks of Earth and the planet are non-synchronous. This time Clock of the planet is at the back side of motion, Therefore planet clock is ahead than Earth's clock by 6.4 years(by calculation), Now when TT started the journey, Earth's clock was reading zero. Therefore Planet's clock should read 6.4 years.

Now HT's clock is running slower. TT takes 6 years to reach planet. By this time both the clocks( Earth clock and planet clock) will go ahead by 3.6 years.(6*0.6=3.6)

So Earth's clock will be reading 3.6 years and planet's clock will be reading 10 years when TT reaches planet.

Now for the return part of the journey, it is the Earth's clock that is at the rear and the planet's clock is at the back and hence their reading should differ by 6.4 years with Earth clock's time ahead. But during the start of the return journey,planet's clock is reading 10 years, therefore Earth's clock is reading 16.4 years( see the change in simultaneity convention, To describe TT's point of view we had to switch frames,(why? when describing his point of view,TT should be rest) which changes simultaneity convention)

Now TT takes another 6 years by which both clocks-earth's and the planet's clock go ahead by 3.6 years.

So by the time TT reaches earth, Earth's clock is reading 20 years of elapsed proper time and TT's clock 12 years of elapsed proper time.

Change is simultaneity convention at the turn around is key here.
 
  • #67
I see,,The portion in between 3.6 and 16.4 years is left out at the turn around from TT's point of view.
But that should not be worried. Why?

Because at the end from both's point of view calculation show that when they meet, HT shows 20 years and TT shows 12 years.

Since clocks show proper time, then both agree that HT has 20 years of elapsed proper time and TT 12 years of elapsed proper time and hence TT ages less than HT.

But really my method of analysis is about point of view analysis because original question asked for it- Point of view's are something which do not have absolute significance or no existence.

It is the space-time interval that has absolute significance since it doesn't change when we change frames. So that method(Peter's analysis) of analysis is better.
 
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  • #68
ash64449 said:
The portion in between 3.6 and 16.4 years is left out at the turn around from TT's point of view.

ash64449 said:
Because at the end from both's point of view calculation show that when they meet, HT shows 20 years and TT shows 12 years.

These two statements do not seem consistent. If the first statement is true, then the calculation from the TT's point of view should be off by 16.4 - 3.6 = 12.8 years.
 
  • #69
ash64449 said:
Point of view's are something which do not have absolute significance or no existence.

Not only that, there is no unique definition of what an observer's "point of view" is; there are multiple ways of constructing one. Your analysis uses one particular way: adopt the simultaneity convention of the inertial frame in which the observer is at rest, and when the observer changes his state of motion, change simultaneity conventions instantly. But that is not the only possible way of doing it. As I said before, there is no absolute fact of the matter about relative clock rates for spatially separated observers; there is also no absolute fact of the matter about which spacelike separated events are simultaneous. It's a matter of convention, and there are multiple possible conventions.
 
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  • #70
PeterDonis said:
These two statements do not seem consistent. If the first statement is true, then the calculation from the TT's point of view should be off by 16.4 - 3.6 = 12.8 years.

OK. the first statement is false. Is there any false issue in my solution of the paradox?
 
  • #71
ash64449 said:
the first statement is false

Why? How does TT account for that portion of HT's worldline in his calculation?
 
  • #72
PeterDonis said:
How does TT account for that portion of HT's worldline in his calculation

At the end of the trip, Elapsed proper time for HT as measured by TT is still 20 years and TT's elapsed proper time is 12 years. So why should we account for it?
 
  • #73
ash64449 said:
why should we account for it?

You should account for it because you are claiming to show how things look "from TT's viewpoint". If "TT's viewpoint" is correct, TT should be able to use his "viewpoint" to predict that HT's clock will read 20 years when they meet up again. But your analysis "from TT's viewpoint" does not show how TT makes that prediction.
 
  • #74
PeterDonis said:
But your analysis "from TT's viewpoint" does not show how TT makes that prediction.

Didn't i do that? the last part of the post #66 explains that.
 
  • #75
That is at the turn around, the elapsed proper time jumped from 3.6 years to 16.4 years for the clock at the earth(from TT's point of view) but for planet the clock still reads 10 years. Therefore simultaneity convention changes.
 
  • #76
i used the word 'left out'. That was wrong. Never was elapsed proper time of HT left out from my explanation of TT's point of view.
 
  • #77
ash64449 said:
at the turn around, the elapsed proper time jumped from 3.6 years to 16.4 years for the clock at the earth(from TT's point of view)

Ok, so what if TT were moving towards HT, but then turned around to move away again? (For example, suppose we are analyzing a modified scenario in which TT goes out, comes part way back, turns around and goes out again, and then comes all the way back.) That would make HT's "elapsed proper time now" go backwards. Do you consider that a viable "point of view" for TT to take?
 
  • #78
PeterDonis said:
Ok, so what if TT were moving towards HT, but then turned around to move away again? (For example, suppose we are analyzing a modified scenario in which TT goes out, comes part way back, turns around and goes out again, and then comes all the way back.) That would make HT's "elapsed proper time now" go backwards. Do you consider that a viable "point of view" for TT to take?
Especially given that what you visually see has no such anomaly, nor is there any such anomaly if you are continually exchanging messages with HT.
 
  • #79
PeterDonis said:
For example, suppose we are analyzing a modified scenario in which TT goes out, comes part way back, turns around and goes out again, and then comes all the way back

Do you mean the scenario in which TT leaves HT, in the middle of the journey,TT rotates,reach planet and TT reach HT again?
 
  • #80
ash64449 said:
Do you mean the scenario in which TT leaves HT, in the middle of the journey,TT rotates,reach planet and TT reach HT again?

I don't think so, but I'm not sure what you are describing here.

The scenario I am talking about, which I don't think had been discussed in this thread before I brought it up, would be described using the HT's rest frame as follows: TT leaves and travels outbound to a distant location (planet, space station, whatever); then TT turns around and heads back towards HT; halfway back, TT turns around again and heads back to the planet/space station/whatever; then TT turns around and heads back all the way to HT and they meet up again.

In this scenario, when TT turns around the second time (when he's gone halfway back to HT, and turns around to head outward again), by your definition of the TT's "point of view", the HT's elapsed proper time will go backwards.
 
  • #81
PeterDonis said:
The scenario I am talking about, which I don't think had been discussed in this thread before I brought it up, would be described using the HT's rest frame as follows: TT leaves and travels outbound to a distant location (planet, space station, whatever); then TT turns around and heads back towards HT; halfway back, TT turns around again and heads back to the planet/space station/whatever; then TT turns around and heads back all the way to HT and they meet up again.

In this scenario, when TT turns around the second time (when he's gone halfway back to HT, and turns around to head outward again), by your definition of the TT's "point of view", the HT's elapsed proper time will go backwards.

I mentioned the difficulties of zigzag paths for Fermi-Normal coordinates - that you have to restrict them to a world tube around the 'traveler'. For sudden zigzags, this word tube touches the traveler on one side or the other.
 
  • #82
ash64449 said:
No.it won't

EDIT: As i exactly calculated, it seems to me that it will.. How can this anomaly be addressed?
By admitting that the momentarily comoving inertial frame is not a reasonable model for a zig zag traveler's measurements because their past is different and any operational approach to setting up coordinates will be completely different.

To try to shorten my long essay some posts back, the basis of inertial coordinates is procedures that can be used to define them. If a zig zag traveler uses some reasonable operational approach to setting up coordinates, the problem does not arise. That is, nothing in their observations have this jump backwards in time, so if they use observationally based coordinates, there is no problem.
 
  • #83
A way to describe a criterion for reasonable observation based coordinates is that anything you see is considered simultaneous to some event in your past later than anything else you've already seen (and assigned). Basically, you are modeling light delay. Any model meeting this criterion will provide consistent coordinates for anything you can see.
 
  • #84
PeterDonis said:
Do you consider that a viable "point of view" for TT to take

No.. This is something that TT cannot accept. To address this issue, A complicated situation arises in which i have to consider turn back at the half-way is not instantaneous.

Even that is not viable. Then another question will come as to why this one is not instantaneous while turn around at the planet is instantaneous?

Then even if i consider the turn around is not instantaneous at the half-way, i see after the process, HT should read the same time as that of the time when TT reached half-way and didn't turn.

So everything gets complicated and hence not viable.

Can you give the answer to your scenario? What will be the reading of the clocks when TT and HT meet up again according to your scenario according to my analysis?
 
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  • #85
PAllen said:
A way to describe a criterion for reasonable observation based coordinates is that anything you see is considered simultaneous to some event in your past later than anything else you've already seen (and assigned). Basically, you are modeling light delay. Any model meeting this criterion will provide consistent coordinates for anything you can see.

Can you show me what your telling by answering to the question as to what HT and TT will see their clocks reading when both meet again according to PeterDonis's scenario?

I think that is the best way to understand what you are telling.
 
  • #86
I think If i use HT's rest frame, TT's travel along the space-time is a zig-zag path and by using the relationship between HT's proper time and TT's proper time, i can see what their clocks will read at the end of the scenario.
 
  • #87
By calculation, I see HT should read 30 years while TT should read 18 years.
 
  • #88
Yeah. I think i found the solution. The solution is "go for it". Let us consider that TT's measure of HT's proper time went backwards.

When TT reaches mid-way and turns,

Clock at HT reads 11.8 while clock at the planet reads 18.2.

When TT reaches the planet, TT now predicts Clock at HT should read 13.6 years while planet should read 20 years.

Now when he makes another turn, Clock at the HT reads 26.4 years and clock at the planet reads 20 years.
When he reaches the earth, HT clock now reads 30 years. And his clock should read 18 years.This is all predicted by TT's point of view and i can see that Point of view method is not viable since at certain instants we need to think that proper time of HT should run backwards- which is not possible.

Anyway as i said earlier, Point of view is something that doesn't have real existence.

I think PeterDonis was trying to say this.
 
  • #89
ash64449 said:
Can you show me what your telling by answering to the question as to what HT and TT will see their clocks reading when both meet again according to PeterDonis's scenario?

I think that is the best way to understand what you are telling.
What they see when they meet is invariant - the same for any valid coordinates.

The most straightforward coordinates meeting the criteria I describe are called radar coordinates. TT simply uses Einstein simultaneity convention - send a signal out to HT, receive a signal back, assign the event of HT receipt to half way between TT send and TT receive. These are called rader coordinates.
 
  • #90
PAllen said:
What they see when they meet is invariant - the same for any valid coordinates.

I can see. I used a different method "point of view" but still answer came same.
 
  • #91
This raises me a question. Does TT actually 'see' proper time of HT go backwards as i addressed?
 
  • #92
ash64449 said:
This raises me a question. Does TT actually 'see' proper time of HT go backwards as i addressed?
I already answered this a couple of times. TT sees HT clock going forward at all times in a zig zag trajectory. That is why TT should find it hard to accept a model that has HT clock going backwards, contrary to what they see.

They see HT clock going slow until first turnaround, then fast until second, then slow again, then fast again. Never backwards. The rate seen is given by the Doppler factor, which is:

√((1+β)/(1-β))

where β = v/c, and v is taken positive if towards (e.g. HT is seen approaching), negative if away.

If you apply this over the different legs, you will find that it correctly shows the final resulting clock comparison.
 
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  • #93
PAllen said:
If you apply this over the different legs, you will find that it correctly shows the final resulting clock comparison.
Yes. For this example Doppler factor is 1/3 for the case when TT moves away from HT and 3 when TT moves towards HT. By using this I can explain Twin Paradox.

When TT reaches planet, His clock will read 6 years and TT will see 2 years as reading in the clock of the HT(with the help of a large telescope). And finally, when TT reaches the earth,6 years have passed, But now TT during these 6 years, TT will see HT's clock moving faster by the factor 3 and hence he will consider 18 years as passed in HT and hence total age of HT is 20 years.

Now for the Peter's Scenario:

When TT reaches planet,6 years passed and TT will see 2 years passed for HT, When TT reaches mid-way,additional 3 years passed and clock runs faster for HT as seen by TT and hence considers 9 years as passed for HT, and again when TT reaches planet,additional 3 year passes and HT clock beats slower as seen by TT and he considers only 1 year as being passed. And finally when TT reaches the earth,TT considers HT's clock to beat additional 18 years.

So total time elapsed for HT as seen by TT is 2+9+1+18=30 years.

Total elapsed proper time for TT is 6+3+3+6=18 years.

So i understand that what is actually seen by TT is accounted by Doppler factor and not frame switch method i was talking about. So my method doesn't actually describe point of view of observer. What is actually seen is correctly explained by Doppler factor-which means time slowing down(Time Dilation) cannot be seen by any observer.

But still Last Answer of my method was correct.
 
  • #94
PAllen said:
Especially given that what you visually see has no such anomaly, nor is there any such anomaly if you are continually exchanging messages with HT.

Yes. When you were talking like this you were talking about the Doppler Factor. I didn't know that.
 
  • #95
ash64449 said:
[..] What is actually seen is correctly explained by Doppler factor-which means time slowing down(Time Dilation) cannot be seen by any observer. [..] .
What is actually seen includes time dilation; I suppose that you used "relativistic Doppler" which includes time dilation, and it's necessary for symmetry of observations between inertial reference systems that are in relative motion. Classical Doppler doesn't include it.
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doppler_effect
 
  • #96
harrylin said:
What is actually seen includes time dilation

Yes. It includes Time Dilation .But we don't see Time Dilation.

I can explain Doppler factor PAllen was talking about .I involve only calculation for a single outgoing scenario.

Consider HT send a signal when it's 1 year for him.

Then the signal will reach TT after 4 years which is 5 years of travel for TT in HT's rest frame.

Now using Time Dilation formula, we find only 3 years elapsed for TT.

So TT think 1 year has passed for HT when 3 years is passed for TT. This is what TT 'see'.

If i consider to work in TT's rest frame,only 1.8 years has been passed for HT and not 1 year when 3 years is passed.

Doppler factor includes Time Dilation but we don't see the Effect of Time Dilation. If so, Then TT should have thought 1.8 years passed for HT when 3 years has been passed for TT, But TT see 1 year pass for HT. So we don't see Time Dilation.
 
  • #97
ash64449 said:
What will be the reading of the clocks when TT and HT meet up again according to your scenario according to my analysis?

I don't know because it looks like your analysis is not self-consistent. But we don't need to do the analysis your way to get the answer. There are plenty of other ways to do it.

ash64449 said:
I think If i use HT's rest frame, TT's travel along the space-time is a zig-zag path and by using the relationship between HT's proper time and TT's proper time, i can see what their clocks will read at the end of the scenario.

ash64449 said:
By calculation, I see HT should read 30 years while TT should read 18 years.

Yes, this is one valid way to do it.
 
  • #98
ash64449 said:
Yes. It includes Time Dilation .But we don't see Time Dilation.

I can explain Doppler factor PAllen was talking about .I involve only calculation for a single outgoing scenario.

Consider HT send a signal when it's 1 year for him.

Then the signal will reach TT after 4 years which is 5 years of travel for TT in HT's rest frame.

Now using Time Dilation formula, we find only 3 years elapsed for TT.

So TT think 1 year has passed for HT when 3 years is passed for TT. This is what TT 'see'.

If i consider to work in TT's rest frame,only 1.8 years has been passed for HT and not 1 year when 3 years is passed.

Doppler factor includes Time Dilation but we don't see the Effect of Time Dilation. If so, Then TT should have thought 1.8 years passed for HT when 3 years has been passed for TT, But TT see 1 year pass for HT. So we don't see Time Dilation.
I'm afraid that I can't follow your reasoning, which looks unnecessarily complex to me. A feature of the so-called "twin paradox" is that in the end the clocks are compared side by side, and we can see that the times they display differ considerably. Can you think of a more striking way to "see" time dilation?
 
  • #99
harrylin said:
"see" time dilation

I think Time Dilation means this: When a observer moves relative to us, Time slows down for him relative to us.(not depend on which direction observer moves)

The question that needs to be addressed here is whether we see Time Dilation with our eyes.

The Answer is No. Because We see Relativistic Doppler Effect which include Time Dilation. We 'see' time beats at slower rate for an observer which is moving away from you and we 'see' time run at a faster rate when the observer move towards you. This effect is the one we 'see' which is not Time Dilation. What we see is Relativistic Doppler Effect which includes Time Dilation.

This is the one what i said at the previous post.
 
  • #100
ash64449 said:
I think Time Dilation means this: When a observer moves relative to us, Time slows down for him relative to us.(not depend on which direction observer moves)

The question that needs to be addressed here is whether we see Time Dilation with our eyes.

The Answer is No. Because We see Relativistic Doppler Effect which include Time Dilation. We 'see' time beats at slower rate for an observer which is moving away from you and we 'see' time run at a faster rate when the observer move towards you. This effect is the one we 'see' which is not Time Dilation. What we see is Relativistic Doppler Effect which includes Time Dilation.

This is the one what i said at the previous post.
"Seeing" always includes a certain amount of interpretation of what it is that you think you are seeing. :wink:
 

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