Faster Than Light Travel, Theories.

[Nimbian]

Any one who has been following my other Thread (Simulated Gravity) knows that I've trying to write a Hard(ish) Science Fiction novel.

I'm looking for help in firming up my "FTL Drives" and trying to use current Real world knowledge

Currently there is two ways to "cheat" the speed of light (in my Universe). Both are Gravity related, primarily because Gravity is currently a unknown but measurable force.

The First is the "Jump Drive" where a ship temporarily leaves our universe only to come back at its destination. Ignoring the power requirements of such a feat. Currently my "idea" is that when two (or more) Microscopic Black holes (Quantum Singularities I believe they are called) Are brought within a certain distance of each other (around 250m) and then both are force fed a Quantum entangled particle, while in a significant gravity well, the resulting link pulls the mass around the micro black holes out of our universe and to a what one could call a "pin head" universe that lacks any sort of Polarization. This Universe rejects the mater breaking the quantum entanglement and forcing the ship back into our universe usually in a different spot, and in a predictable manner (else there wouldn't be much use for a unreliable FTL Drive).

There are issues with this drive thou. the First being the manufacture and stabilization of the Quantum Singularities. The Entangled Pairs are relatively easy to make using SPDC. The Second is Manufactured for Story reasons, requires the Pair to be in a larger gravity well (like that of the sun or Jupiter).
The Third is time, like every thing else in the "pin head" universe is compressed. While in there they are accelerated, Subjectively only a few seconds if not less will have passed for the occupants while while a significant (to humans any way) amount of time has pasted any where from 2 weeks to a month.

Benefits, it Theoretically can go anywhere there is a large enough Gravity field for it to emerge. The Trip is very quick for the passengers thus reducing how much food and other supplies they would need.

Does this Theory make sense (within current understanding)? is there any thing like it current understanding? What would make it more complete? How would you change it to have it make more Practical Sense?

I know I could just say this is how it works and that's that, but it never hurts to see what's out there.

Also thank you for reading, and for any replies

 

[sophiecentaur]

We're into the realms of Star Trek and, hence, into 'speculation'. This is not in the brief of PF, I think. Read the rules. They don't include Science Fiction.

 

[Nimbian]

Thanks for the Move I didn't even know there was a SF section

 

[Ryan_m_b]

Does this Theory make sense (within current understanding)? is there any thing like it current understanding? What would make it more complete? How would you change it to have it make more Practical Sense?

Nope it doesn't make any sense. You've got lots of technobabble but no science, placing black holes near each other is not going to bend the universe to the point where you jump from one place to the other any more than placing any mass close to each other would. AFAIK the only FTL that physics entertains (that doesn't mean supports) is wormholes and warp drives. Both require exotic matter that most likely didn't exist.

My advice would be in a case like this where your plot device clearly isn't in agreement with what is currently known don't try to justify it with what we know. Instead make up something entirely new, semi-make up something that the characters don't fully understand or don't explain it at all. I have examples of all three used in various media if you want some research material.

 

[Nimbian]

Thanks for the Reply Ryan_m_b

And your entirely right that the characters need not understand how the drive works, either then pressing a button and being in a different place. In fact only one character will know how it works, but won't be inclined to share.

I am looking for Internal constancy.

Most SF FTL drives require at least in some way "tricking" the universe it behaving in a way that contradicts know or conventional physics. Which is what the Jump Drive does.

Here is how I came up with my Idea.

First off the Distance between the QS is important,
Newton's law of universal gravitation states that every point mass in the universe attracts every other point mass with a force that is directly proportional to the product of their masses and inversely proportional to the square of the distance between them.

Second, no one knows exactly what Gravity is, is it a particle? A Wave? Some Exotic matter that is yet unobservable? A Combination there of? My presupposition is that Gravity is a form of quantum entanglement that affects all matter. (Thus connecting all Traditional matter in the universe to each other.

When the Entangled pair is introduced to the Two QS, it essentially takes on the Entangled properties. Cloning of Entangled pairs are Possible see This article.

Now back to Newtons Law. These Two Masses are now effectively connected on a Quantum level. with a Distance at least on a Quantum level being effectively zero. Now there is no science to predict what a QS is Much less the result of entangling two or more will do. so it is safely within the realm of SF.

In my "plot Device" these it effectively expands the Event Horizon to that of a much larger Singularity (Black hole), one that is the distance of the QS apart. but since Quantum entanglement decays (and decays faster when more mass is involved) the Event Horizon is unstable and shrinks immediately and instantly Its this processes that Kicks the vessel out of our universe. Provided there is sufficient nearby mass to slow/distort this process (otherwise the vessel is just crushed)

In the story the first time this happened it was a complete in utter accident.

Does what I am basing it on make more sense now? or is it still just technobable to you?

 

[Ryan_m_b]

Does what I am basing it on make more sense now? or is it still just technobable to you?

Still technobabble I'm afraid. Gravity isn't a total mystery, just because we don't have a quantum theory of gravity doesn't mean that we don't know a lot about it. As for the rest of your ideas they don't really make sense e.g. "expanding the event horizon to kick the vessel out of the universe" and "gravity is quantum entanglement for everything".

My advice remains the same as above, either invent entirely new physical phenomenon (e.g. hyperspace) or never/barely talk about it other than to list its capabilities and limitations. Trying to go halfway by inventing partially new physics to allow the impossible is rarely a good idea, firstly because it will constrain your writing to the point where it might bore laypeople and secondly it will most likely break the willing suspension of disbelief for writers who know enough to know that what your writing is wrong or nonsense.

 

[Nimbian]

Still technobabble I'm afraid. Gravity isn't a total mystery, just because we don't have a quantum theory of gravity doesn't mean that we don't know a lot about it. As for the rest of your ideas they don't really make sense e.g. "expanding the event horizon to kick the vessel out of the universe" and "gravity is quantum entanglement for everything".

First thanks for making me do a lot more research on the subject
No your quite right, Gravity isn't a total mystery.

It is just a Force which we can observe and Measure, yet all of the current models out there that predict the effects of Gravity can not, currently, tell us what gravity IS. Is is Faraday Lines? Gravitons (a particle)? Gravity waves? or some other elementary particle form past Quarks and Leptons? Which is more Accurate? String Theory? Supersting Theory?, M-Theory? Loop Quantum Gravity? Even the most accepted and best understood, Theory of General relativity, can not predict all aspects of Gravity.

But simply because we can predict with with almost absolute certainty that the sun will set in one direction and rise in another doesn't mean can't exploit the phenomenon nor does it mean we know what elements compose the sun ( understand that for the most part we actually do understand what elements compose the sun it's just and example). And its that uncertainty that Makes Both science and science fiction possible.

My advice remains the same as above, either invent entirely new physical phenomenon (e.g. hyperspace) or never/barely talk about it other than to list its capabilities and limitations. Trying to go halfway by inventing partially new physics to allow the impossible is rarely a good idea, firstly because it will constrain your writing to the point where it might bore laypeople and secondly it will most likely break the willing suspension of disbelief for writers who know enough to know that what your writing is wrong or nonsense.

Technically speaking I am using a New physical Phenomenon "Hyperspace" = Another universe where the physical laws are different. I have described this as the mode of travel. The Jump drive forces the vessel out of our universe/reality/spacetime and into another which rejects (it like misplaced mail) and sends it back usually in a particular, thus Measurable, thus modifiable manner. Essentially Creating a Wormhole into another dimension/universe/alternate spacetime, then changing the return location thru some action in "Hyperspace". What my "theory" is is essentially an attempt at describing how Leaving the universe takes place.

What I'm attempting to describe is this. If you some how create a Physical impossibility (some thing that is not supported by local physics) then the universe (which in my story is connected to an infinite number of other universes, including even antimatter universes, thru some yet unknown force) then universe reacts, with an equal (in terms of energy level) reaction. In a Space-time curvature (commonly known as a Gravity well) the vessel leaves the universe. In space that has no significant curvature something else happens maybe nothing, or possibly the vessel turns into energy/plasma.

I'm attempting to approach it as if the drive already exists and simply trying to explain Why it works the way it does. Sure I'm trying (and failing) to attach it to existing Theories, but that shouldn't mean I should just give up, No Theory I've come across describes a universe like mine, or how to cross dimensions.

So I have fixated on a physical phenomenon, know as Black Holes, and primary on their even Horizions. mainly due to this description

The defining feature of a black hole is the appearance of an event horizon—a boundary in spacetime through which matter and light can only pass inward towards the mass of the black hole. Nothing, not even light, can escape from inside the event horizon. The event horizon is referred to as such because if an event occurs within the boundary, information from that event cannot reach an outside observer, making it impossible to determine if such an event occurred.

If there is no Actual mass involved where does the contents of a shrinking Event Horizon GO? Possibly using conventional theory it goes no where.

And while the Audience may never know how the drive actually works. I the writer do, How can I describe a transition to another universe without knowing what Physics Laws I'm breaking?
How does that affect the ship? the Passengers? Their Minds? While the answer to all these questions is simply however the story needs them to be, I the writer want more, I want more so that I can fill in the description of the setting with a Level of constant Physics. I don't want to say every time some thing happens is because "its just due to the Quantum Singularities miss aligning." or some such Bull. If some thing just must happen then I can just use ye'old Plot device and make it happen. but with sensible constraints it forces you to be more creative in your solutions, and makes a story more believable.

Sorry for the lengthy reply. I'm kinda passionate on the subject... :)

 

[ReaverKing]

Hi. I'm ReaverKing, also a Newbie and a friend of Nimbian's in the world with sunlight and stuff. We've been sharing this particular "sci-fi" universe for short stories and RPG settings since we were in high school. He's obsessed with getting it as close to scientific reality as possible. My focus is mostly on the social sciences. What would HAPPEN to a society permanently in space? Would anything even change at all?

Nimbian's big deal is he tends to get kinda paralysed unless he has some logical structure to work from. If he doesn't have one he gets obsessed with building one till he does have one. Sort of like an obsessive-compulsive cat falling off a desk with a ball of string really (and just as entertaining).

For myself, I'm working primarily with our other imaginary method of FTL travel: Wormholes.

I remember reading/seeing a theory about the topology of space that states that in areas of deep interstellar space where there is absolutely nothing that wormholes can spontaneously form. I believe this either is or is related in some way to the Casimir effect. As a result, all that is needed is a "macguffin" (quasi-magical device) that is capable of generating a mass-negative field in front of a moving spaceship in a region of space with zero (or near-zero) relative gravity to theoretically stabilize and traverse a wormhole, if not outright create one. As an added constraint, I envision an as-yet not-completely-specified distance limitation between the origin point and exit point due to the unstable nature of the wormholes.

In fictional "under-the-hood" terms the mass-negative field would have to be capable of obscuring the ship's own "mass profile" thus creating constraints on ship design. Power requirements are sufficiently enormous that there are freqent "layovers" on long trips as the field generator cools off and recharges. The part I can't find an excuse for is creating the intended "Exit mouth" for the wormhole. That's where the people with the engineering degrees would have come in a few hundred years from now. Any comments or advice as well as any limitations such a method of travel would run up against would be appreciated. Often where things fall down is the most interesting part.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

First thanks for making me do a lot more research on the subject
No your quite right, Gravity isn't a total mystery.

It is just a Force which we can observe and Measure, yet all of the current models out there that predict the effects of Gravity can not, currently, tell us what gravity IS. Is is Faraday Lines? Gravitons (a particle)? Gravity waves? or some other elementary particle form past Quarks and Leptons? Which is more Accurate? String Theory? Supersting Theory?, M-Theory? Loop Quantum Gravity? Even the most accepted and best understood, Theory of General relativity, can not predict all aspects of Gravity.

I'm pretty sure we know it better than that, i.e. we can rule out quarks and leptons, it's considered a wave etc. I'm not an expert on this however so I can't help much more.

Technically speaking I am using a New physical Phenomenon "Hyperspace" = Another universe where the physical laws are different.

Actually I'd say that in the majority of cases this isn't what hyperspace-esque fiction is. Rather than leaving the universe entirely in most SF it's entering a different "dimension" of the same universe. A good way to think about it is like up and down in flatland. If you've not come across this before think of a 2d world populated by 2d polygons. One day one says to another "I've made a machine that can fly in the 3rd dimension", the other doesn't understand and whilst he can see the machine (a plane) he can't figure out what it does. The inventor then gets in his plane and takes off. For the second polygon it's as though the first and his machine have just disappeared, they may even reappear elsewhere having bypassed all the 2d obstacles in the way. Does that make sense? It might not impact on your fiction if you want it to be a totally new universe but then the question arises what determines where/when the craft arrives in this universe and returns to ours.

What I'm attempting to describe is this. If you some how create a Physical impossibility (some thing that is not supported by local physics) then the universe (which in my story is connected to an infinite number of other universes, including even antimatter universes, thru some yet unknown force) then universe reacts, with an equal (in terms of energy level) reaction. In a Space-time curvature (commonly known as a Gravity well) the vessel leaves the universe. In space that has no significant curvature something else happens maybe nothing, or possibly the vessel turns into energy/plasma.

Sorry but again this is all just technobabble sciency words strung together with no real meaning. For example:

• Physical impossibilities are by definition impossible so you can't create one
• Reacting in terms of equal energy level doesn't make sense in this context. How does the universe react with equal energy to an impossible event?
• I get what a gravity well is but leaving the universe by one makes no sense
• The curvature of space doesn't really have any bearing here. AFAIK it's not a deciding factor in whether or not multiverses exist
• Lastly turning into energy/plasma seems an arbitrary response to the creation of an impossible "thing"

I'm attempting to approach it as if the drive already exists and simply trying to explain Why it works the way it does. Sure I'm trying (and failing) to attach it to existing Theories, but that shouldn't mean I should just give up, No Theory I've come across describes a universe like mine, or how to cross dimensions.

I'm not saying you should give up at all I understand that you're dedicated to your fiction. All I hope to do is point out where there is a lack of sense and hopefully provide alternative ideas or general writing advice.

So I have fixated on a physical phenomenon, know as Black Holes, and primary on their even Horizions. mainly due to this description
...If there is no Actual mass involved where does the contents of a shrinking Event Horizon GO? Possibly using conventional theory it goes no where.

Black holes evapourate by hawking radiation. Nothing leaves this universe.

And while the Audience may never know how the drive actually works. I the writer do, How can I describe a transition to another universe without knowing what Physics Laws I'm breaking?

That's one of my points I hope to impart, you don't have to break any laws of physics. Just make up laws that superceed them.

How does that affect the ship? the Passengers? Their Minds? While the answer to all these questions is simply however the story needs them to be, I the writer want more, I want more so that I can fill in the description of the setting with a Level of constant Physics. I don't want to say every time some thing happens is because "its just due to the Quantum Singularities miss aligning." or some such Bull. If some thing just must happen then I can just use ye'old Plot device and make it happen. but with sensible constraints it forces you to be more creative in your solutions, and makes a story more believable.

The thing is you're going to have to make all of this up anyway. You can't start from an impossible premise then ask what the laws of physics would say about it. I.e. "what do the laws of physics say would happen to one's mind if I broke the laws of physics and sent some people to another universe via an impossible thing?"

I think you should consider ditching the idea of making it so very close to known physics (or at least explaining it) because you can't. It's like trying to make ice in fire. There is no known plausible way of traveling faster than light or to other universes. Considering that's what you want you're not going to be able to do it by trying to twist what we currently know. At some point you've just got to sit back and start making it up.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

Hi. I'm ReaverKing, also a Newbie and a friend of Nimbian's in the world with sunlight and stuff.

Welcome to the forums

We've been sharing this particular "sci-fi" universe for short stories and RPG settings since we were in high school. He's obsessed with getting it as close to scientific reality as possible. My focus is mostly on the social sciences. What would HAPPEN to a society permanently in space? Would anything even change at all?

My favourite part of science fiction is the exploration of the social aspects. As to what you say specifically there is huge scope but it all depends on the technology and historical context.

Nimbian's big deal is he tends to get kinda paralysed unless he has some logical structure to work from. If he doesn't have one he gets obsessed with building one till he does have one. Sort of like an obsessive-compulsive cat falling off a desk with a ball of string really (and just as entertaining).

Lol, having internally consistant macguffin is important.

For myself, I'm working primarily with our other imaginary method of FTL travel: Wormholes.

I remember reading/seeing a theory about the topology of space that states that in areas of deep interstellar space where there is absolutely nothing that wormholes can spontaneously form. I believe this either is or is related in some way to the Casimir effect. As a result, all that is needed is a "macguffin" (quasi-magical device) that is capable of generating a mass-negative field in front of a moving spaceship in a region of space with zero (or near-zero) relative gravity to theoretically stabilize and traverse a wormhole, if not outright create one. As an added constraint, I envision an as-yet not-completely-specified distance limitation between the origin point and exit point due to the unstable nature of the wormholes.

In fictional "under-the-hood" terms the mass-negative field would have to be capable of obscuring the ship's own "mass profile" thus creating constraints on ship design. Power requirements are sufficiently enormous that there are freqent "layovers" on long trips as the field generator cools off and recharges. The part I can't find an excuse for is creating the intended "Exit mouth" for the wormhole. That's where the people with the engineering degrees would have come in a few hundred years from now. Any comments or advice as well as any limitations such a method of travel would run up against would be appreciated. Often where things fall down is the most interesting part.

You could pretty much make up most of what you want here as there is no known way of making the negative mass/energy needed (especially in quantities, I've read wormhole papers where the estimates were solar system quantities of mass to make a wormhole). My advice here would be to decide how close you want to stick to what is currently speculated about wormholes and then from that start designing your system. I.e.

• Are your wormholes going to be spherical or planar?
• Are they made in pairs and one has to be transported or can they be projected?
• How will you deal with the ease in which time travel can be accomplished with wormholes?
• What are the size, range and energy limitations?
• Do wormholes need to be in space (common SF troupe is for them to be far from gravity fields or in Lagrange points) or can they be on planetary surfaces?
• If the latter does your civilisation need spacecraft at all?
• If they are relatively cheap and can go anywhere what will a civilisation look like where towns/cities/space stations are linked via wormhole roads to others either nearby or thousands of lightyears away?

Lot's of scope for interesting stories there. More so than for interesting ways to link it to current day physics IMO. If you like I can recommend some novels/series that deal with many of these options in different ways.

 

[Nimbian]

You could pretty much make up most of what you want here as there is no known way of making the negative mass/energy needed (especially in quantities, I've read wormhole papers where the estimates were solar system quantities of mass to make a wormhole). My advice here would be to decide how close you want to stick to what is currently speculated about wormholes and then from that start designing your system. I.e.

• Are your wormholes going to be spherical or planar?
• Are they made in pairs and one has to be transported or can they be projected?
• How will you deal with the ease in which time travel can be accomplished with wormholes?
• What are the size, range and energy limitations?
• Do wormholes need to be in space (common SF troupe is for them to be far from gravity fields or in Lagrange points) or can they be on planetary surfaces?
• If the latter does your civilisation need spacecraft at all?
• If they are relatively cheap and can go anywhere what will a civilisation look like where towns/cities/space stations are linked via wormhole roads to others either nearby or thousands of lightyears away?

I can answer most of these

• Are your wormholes going to be spherical or planar?
  Planar
  
• Are they made in pairs and one has to be transported or can they be projected?
  They Can be projected, but only a few light years, an only to a valid/physically possible location
  
• How will you deal with the ease in which time travel can be accomplished with wormholes?
  in our universe (the fictional one) Wormholes require a lot of energy to project and maintain in most cases so the artificial ones will be temporary, excepting microscopic wormholes which are used for FTL communication. Time Travel is theoretically possible by influencing the physical Properties of an opening but 99.99% of the time any thing made of matter would be torn apart
  
• What are the size, range and energy limitations?
  Size, 10m to the edges of the "flat" plane of space time see bellow. Range Theoretically infinite, but range is based on how "Flat" plane of space projecting the wormhole is, Energy Limitations, High, biased on range and size, most ships can manage a few systems before they have to stop to refuel, a few as defined by a range from 2-4
  
• Do wormholes need to be in space (common SF troupe is for them to be far from gravity fields or in Lagrange points) or can they be on planetary surfaces?
  Wormholes can be formed any place where Gravity/Curved space time isn't (has to be flat). Effectively in space only, Usually on the edges of systems and/or above or below the plane, Lagrange points are commonly used but usually (due to their complicated nature) they usually used as shortcuts within a system rather then as a lunching point to another.
• If the latter does your civilization need spacecraft at all?
  Yes, and for more then just space travel (defense, inter-system Travel, etc)
  
• If they are relatively cheap and can go anywhere what will a civilization look like where towns/cities/space stations are linked via wormhole roads to others either nearby or thousands of light years away?
  By the time of the story I'm writing there are stations that are connected by Wormhole highways, but its expensive.
  During the time he is writing its considered possible simply too expensive to build and maintain, especially with the perceived external and internal threats

I'll tackle your reply to me later today if I have time :) As always thanks for the reply and the time.

 

[ReaverKing]

Nimbian pretty much answered everything but I wanted to add a few points:

1. Time Travel - due to my totally limited understanding, I assumed that because I read wormholes have to be moving to create time dilation effects, there would be none. I never considered that using a wormhole would result in effects related to relative motion. (i.e. jumping from one bullet ricocheting off another bullet) I just let myself assume (incorrectly) that the wormholes are static (which would have other problems related to cancelling relative motion)

I have no real answer for this. Our shared Universe spans your typical "immense period of time" and I prefer writing in an era where trips lasting months or years is still "acceptable". That way, extremely limited time dilation effects (i.e. days/weeks) are essentially negligible. Also, there is (as yet) no measurable evidence of macroscopic time travel (i.e. receiving messages from the future) in the Actual universe so...2.

I've read wormhole papers where the estimates were solar system quantities of mass to make a wormhole

wow. I've severely underestimated the fuel costs. Again, no answer.3. Wormhole dimensions - no "long tunnels" a la Stargate or Farscape or something. More like Dune - momentary connections between two flat regions of space-time with no measurable "connecting" zone. Your standard temporary "door" or "portal" idea. TBH I have no idea how distance is calculated or where an "exit" is placed, I'm just going with the same "engineers from 400 years from now" excuse from before.

As an aside: the Casimir effect is based on the idea of "virtual particles". Would an object transitioning a wormhole temporarily become unstable/energy/or in some way "virtual" itself? 'cause I wrote this great scene where a guilt-ridden Admiral gets himself drunk before interstellar travel as a form of self-punishment and upchucks lightning during the transition...

 

[Nimbian]

Me and Reaverking meet quite often to discuss our universe.

First thou he pointed out something to me. Ryan I am sorry, re-reading my posts it looks like I was acting like I was defending rather then having a dialog. I apologize if I gave the impression that I was taking it personally. and Hope you have not taken offense at any thing I have said. So far you've been forcing me to think more logically and actually define things that so far have been left in the wind, so again Thank you

Second
Me and Reaverking are almost opposite when it comes to our methods of writing and/or the types of stories we want to write. we both have been telling stories in this universe for close to ten years now.

Actually I'd say that in the majority of cases this isn't what hyperspace-esque fiction is. Rather than leaving the universe entirely in most SF it's entering a different "dimension" of the same universe. A good way to think about it is like up and down in flatland. If you've not come across this before think of a 2d world populated by 2d polygons. One day one says to another "I've made a machine that can fly in the 3rd dimension", the other doesn't understand and whilst he can see the machine (a plane) he can't figure out what it does. The inventor then gets in his plane and takes off. For the second polygon it's as though the first and his machine have just disappeared, they may even reappear elsewhere having bypassed all the 2d obstacles in the way. Does that make sense? It might not impact on your fiction if you want it to be a totally new universe but then the question arises what determines where/when the craft arrives in this universe and returns to ours.

Actually I am Familiar with the concept Flatland, I'm actually basing my Idea of a similar concept in "The Two-space War".

As to the Next question I have thought of what determines where/when the craft arrives in this universe and returns to ours.

Arrival in N-Space is easy (comparatively to reaching the destination), as the ship arrives just inside the expansion wave Of the N-Space universe (N-Space Stands for Null Space), Targeting the return location is much, much harder. I was thinking of modifications to the QS (Spin, distance, relative orientation, up, down) influenced the return location, the closer to the launch point the less change necessary, thus the easier it is to do, thus the Quicker. (keeping in mind there is basically a pocket of our universe around the vessel). These would have to be programmed ahead of time, since there would be little time for a Human to make these changes before the "Bounce Back" happens

Sorry but again this is all just technobabble sciency words strung together with no real meaning. For example:

Physical impossibilities are by definition impossible so you can't create one
Reacting in terms of equal energy level doesn't make sense in this context. How does the universe react with equal energy to an impossible event?
I get what a gravity well is but leaving the universe by one makes no sense
The curvature of space doesn't really have any bearing here. AFAIK it's not a deciding factor in whether or not multiverses exist
Lastly turning into energy/plasma seems an arbitrary response to the creation of an impossible "thing"

Isn't that the Very definition of Science Fiction? :)
1. To me a Physical Impossibilities is intended to mean evens which, can not happen in nature, (I should have said Physical Improbabilities)
2. To me Every thing is simply a system that is part of a larger and larger systems. Quarks and Leptons make Neutrons, Protons and Electrons, Those make Atoms and so on. A disruption in one system causes a reaction, that balances the system Conceptually that's what I'm seeing happening with the "jump Drive".
3. Your Right except as a plot requirement of the drive needing to be near a large gravity well. AFAIK your right.
4. Thanks to you I have a Name for that Energy now

hawking radiation

:) at least with my current model. Any system that has laws has ways of keeping them (other wise we would have FTL by now :) E=MC² is what I was thing about. Mass can't exists in the state it is in then change the state. Agian just how I view it.

I'm not saying you should give up at all I understand that you're dedicated to your fiction. All I hope to do is point out where there is a lack of sense and hopefully provide alternative ideas or general writing advice.

And I thank you very much for your time and Effort.

That's one of my points I hope to impart, you don't have to break any laws of physics. Just make up laws that superseded them.

I've never been realty good at that. not making the rules no.. but Stopping making up rules once I've started ... just ask Reaverking. ;) Also I guess I'm looking for a theory or effect I can exploit to start my "New" physics.

I think you should consider ditching the idea of making it so very close to known physics (or at least explaining it) because you can't. It's like trying to make ice in fire. There is no known plausible way of traveling faster than light or to other universes. Considering that's what you want you're not going to be able to do it by trying to twist what we currently know. At some point you've just got to sit back and start making it up.

*sigh* your probably right. also at Reaverkings suggestion I'm looking into Quantum Teleportation as an alternative.

Also an interesting thing I found in that link although it is yet unverified by the source

A black hole of one solar mass has a temperature of only 60 nanokelvins; in fact, such a black hole would absorb far more cosmic microwave background radiation than it emits. A black hole of 4.5 × 1022 kg (about the mass of the Moon) would be in equilibrium at 2.7 kelvin, absorbing as much radiation as it emits. Yet smaller primordial black holes would emit more than they absorb, and thereby lose mass

Also I think we should shorten our replies, at this rate we will be taking all day to reply back appropriately (feel free to post however you like thou)

As always thanks for taking the time to read, and reply

 

[r4z0r84]

Why not use cryogenic places for the people to sleep, and the ship is controlled by AI? its not too exciting i guess but i have thought about deep space travel for many years i have come up with a few cost effective ways to make it possible, still requires a lot of time and money to make it happen. to put it basically without spilling all my ideas on the floor for anyone to take, a device external from the ship itself speeds the ship to the speed of light over the period of almost one year at a constant acceleration of 1m/s (1g) effectively gravity, Its just the calculation of getting from one point to the other without destroying yourself in the process that I am struggling with haha plus the energy requirement to reach those speeds would mean half the moon would be gone due to mining H3 for a fuel source, plus the amount of electromagnets needed, plus the size of the launcher would have to go around the Earth in a loop and then have a final launcher pop out to fling everything into deep space at light speed.

Current technology allows this, not so much the cryogenic freezing and reviving of humans but the launching into space at light speed, its not possible on Earth due to gravity and friction, the only friction in space is time itself.

if you remove that friction by freezing/slowing down time for the people on board, technically this would give the effect of going faster then the speed of light.

 

[r4z0r84]

And on a random note, a while ago an engineer launched a website stating that we have all the technology to build the uss 1gen enterprise from star trek.

http://www.buildtheenterprise.org/

 

[Nimbian]

And on a random note, a while ago an engineer launched a website stating that we have all the technology to build the uss 1gen enterprise from star trek.

http://www.buildtheenterprise.org/

Cool I definitely check out the site. Also thanks for Posting

Actually the Majority of the reactors in our setting are either He3 or Proton-Anti proton reactors. and for perspective 98% of humanity uses He³ while the 2% uses the much more efficient but dangerous P-AP reactors. He³ from gas giants and other sources and AP from areas close to the suns.

To clarify some other parts of our setting and what, and why we are looking at various FTL "styles"

With-in a system space travel is what I call Medium speed, taking weeks or months to cross a system unless short cuts are used, Gravity slings, Mass Drivers, and Lagrange point wormhole jumps.

While FTL is fast Crossing to any thing in "range" instantly.

FTL Communication is done in in many ways but more or less goes with the 1600-1900 method of simply loading copies of the messages on outgoing ships, the Star ship version of "the Pony Express" also exists. Microscopic wormholes are also used, to help propagate the message but still takes time to travel in normal space (since wormholes in our setting can't form in or near gravity wells). it can take any where from hours to weeks to get a response in some cases.

Humanity discovered the jump drive by accident. and used it for close to sixty years before they were attacked by an alien race that used a completely different FTL drive, the Wormhole drive. After a few years at war Humanity had captured a few ships and had finally reversed engineered the drive. This drive (which had a much lower energy cost, was much safer, and side stepped the seeming random time delay.) became the standard drive of the Human race. While it doesn't need to be the Jumpdrive or wormhole drive, we simply came up with two drives that are as opposite as possible.

Why not use cryogenic places for the people to sleep, and the ship is controlled by AI? its not too exciting i guess but i have thought about deep space travel for many years i have come up with a few cost effective ways to make it possible, still requires a lot of time and money to make it happen.

Actually some ships would likely offer this as a service, especially for people heading long distances away. (cheaper maintenance) but only the Lower classes use it (your helpless while frozen, and no matter how safe the technology would be it could be dangerous for some people), Alternatively, Frequent flyers that are Rich may also travel this way if only to slow aging.

As for AI's Human space while is united via the Alliance, is still quite fragmented Culturally, There is a general distrust of AI's but by and large each system to have laws that that either protect AI's or Banish them. AI's as passengers and as part of the crew, it all depends on the System of origin.

 

[ReaverKing]

Why not use cryogenic places for the people to sleep, and the ship is controlled by AI? its not too exciting i guess but i have thought about deep space travel for many years i have come up with a few cost effective ways to make it possible, still requires a lot of time and money to make it happen.

One of the key aspects of Sci-fi is the tension between the "familliar" and the "alien". A society that uses "cold sleep" space travel runs into two very difficult problems:

1. In order to travel anywhere the characters wind up isolated in a metal box while great stretches fo time go by.

2. The interstellar economy and traffic would look nothing like travel between cities of nations on Earth today.If it takes ten years to travel between two star systems, a man of 20 will have a son close to his age or older when he gets back. Adding in the relativistic effects of near-light speed travel only makes the problem more acute. For example, if a man were chasing down a fugative between star systems, the two men would be in the middle of a gripping chase from planet to planet. To the rest of humanity, cenutries have gone by and there's no one alive to bring the fugative TO any more.

In the novel The Forever War such issues become one of the major focal points of the novel. Whereas in the Honor Harrington and Heris Serrano Fictional Universes, some form of FTL travel is necessary. For one reason (among a great many others) that it becomes much harder to have repeated battles between two characters on opposing sides without one or the other accidentally dying of old age in between battles.

[Confession] Our original vision of this universe came about from a discussion about wether energy weapons would truly be more effective than the conventional ballistic/kinetic weapons of our own era given the same length of time it would take to research man-portable energy weapons. (i.e. creating new technologies vs improving existing technologies). His infantry essentially carries a lethal flashlight, mine carry an AK-74 with new materials for the components. From there, the need to carry troops from world to world and fight in space as the argument balooned made FTL a necessity or technological advancements "in-transit" would render the whole argument moot.

 

[Nimbian]

[Confession] Our original vision of this universe came about from a discussion about wether energy weapons would truly be more effective than the conventional ballistic/kinetic weapons of our own era given the same length of time it would take to research man-portable energy weapons. (i.e. creating new technologies vs improving existing technologies). His infantry essentially carries a lethal flashlight, mine carry an AK-74 with new materials for the components. From there, the need to carry troops from world to world and fight in space as the argument balooned made FTL a necessity or technological advancements "in-transit" would render the whole argument moot.

If I remember right the Rules of the our face off was essentially from Deadest worriers, but we actual started close to twelve years ago with another setting and a third guy, (who was also involved in making this setting). I believe it was the above conversation, that let to most of our current ideas.

 

[r4z0r84]

wormhole ftl drives would need to be able to overlap space time so that you only have to travel a short period of time to get to the desired location, i guess it would be the only plausable way that two forces (aliens and humans) would be effectively be able to chase one another or keep bumping into one another, but technically you would not be traveling faster then light, it would depend where you actually measure from, the point of entry and exit in a straight line through the wormhole, or in space time itself. it would also depend on how traveling through the wormhole effects the light inside it, you wouldn't want to just end up at the other end back in time, although theoretically if you looked back at where you entered you wouldn't have even approached the entrance yet. as the light would take say you travel 800 years away in a few seconds, you wouldn't see yourself for another 800 years, this is the part that always gets me, the focal point of the observer will only see things coming at a relative speed to the observer.

The way i picture it is like a piece of paper, you draw a line and measure say 20 cm's, you fold the paper in half and the distance becomes less then 1mm from point to point. sadly though the universe isn't that easy to just bend in half.

say a wormhole is possible, you travel 2000 light years away in a few seconds, you look back at the earth, through an extremely powerful and accurate telescope you would see 2000 years into the past. as it takes 2000 years for the light from Earth to reach the telescope. so intergalactic communication would have to keep wormholes open so that you could communicate with the present.

if this technology were possible we could go so far away for example millions/billions of light years away in seconds, would this mean we could see the reminence of the big bang?

 

[Nimbian]

wormhole ftl drives would need to be able to overlap space time so that you only have to travel a short period of time to get to the desired location, i guess it would be the only plausable way that two forces (aliens and humans) would be effectively be able to chase one another or keep bumping into one another, but technically you would not be traveling faster then light, it would depend where you actually measure from, the point of entry and exit in a straight line through the wormhole, or in space time itself. it would also depend on how traveling through the wormhole effects the light inside it, you wouldn't want to just end up at the other end back in time, although theoretically if you looked back at where you entered you wouldn't have even approached the entrance yet. as the light would take say you travel 800 years away in a few seconds, you wouldn't see yourself for another 800 years, this is the part that always gets me, the focal point of the observer will only see things coming at a relative speed to the observer.

I guess it would depend heavily on how you calculate the distance, and wither or no it requires some kind of visual reference.

The Short answer is in our Setting wormhole can occur naturally, and do. they are simply too small and disappear too fast to be usable. But the aliens had found a way to control their appearance (making them seem to appear by command) and then direct their path. The wormholes themselves are zero length wormholes, meaning there is no intervening distance between Door A in one system and Door B in another, effectively a Portal. Range is very limited; only a few light years, perhaps a little longer if the right conditions are meet. Creating a wormhole that spans hundreds or even thousands of light years is impossible to do without first modifying the local gravity in some way, as the conditions are almost impossible to find to the point of negating any usefulness. Also in the history of our universe only two races have ever been able to achieve that. Later engines had the ability to spontaneously create the wormholes rather then just using existing ones.

Actually the Asymmetry between the two drives is important for why it took so long for Humanity to react to the alien threat. Using the Jumpdrive. All locations are equidistant, Need to return for supplies? takes exactly the same amount of time to travel home as it did to get there. When Eden (A colony created by the accidental creation of the jump-drive, Long story... might even tell it some day.) began to explore they targeted F, G, and K type stars, in their search to find Earth again, they were also looking for possible real estate. After reuniting with Earth they helped Earth Colonize the worlds that they had prepared. But because they only explored certain types of stars, there was no clear expansion ring or pattern to where the colonies ended up. It drove the Aliens nuts since two colonies we're planted right in the middle of what they claimed as theirs, and there was no indication of how these worlds became inhabited since they expanded in a more traditional star by star pattern.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

Sorry for the late reply, not had much time for the past few days. I'm still quite busy but here's a quick reply to some of the points (sorry but don't have time to include links either to some of the points).

in our universe (the fictional one) Wormholes require a lot of energy to project and maintain in most cases so the artificial ones will be temporary, excepting microscopic wormholes which are used for FTL communication. Time Travel is theoretically possible by influencing the physical Properties of an opening but 99.99% of the time any thing made of matter would be torn apart

Nimbian pretty much answered everything but I wanted to add a few points:

1. Time Travel - due to my totally limited understanding, I assumed that because I read wormholes have to be moving to create time dilation effects, there would be none. I never considered that using a wormhole would result in effects related to relative motion. (i.e. jumping from one bullet ricocheting off another bullet) I just let myself assume (incorrectly) that the wormholes are static (which would have other problems related to cancelling relative motion)

You're correct about the effects of time dilation creating Roman rings (wormhole networks that allow time travel). I'm not sure if wormholes could be use to make a tachyonic antitelephone. If you don't mention it I doubt many readers will care.

wow. I've severely underestimated the fuel costs. Again, no answer.

No problem, just don't mention it or briefly mention that you've found a previously unknown way around this.

As an aside: the Casimir effect is based on the idea of "virtual particles". Would an object transitioning a wormhole temporarily become unstable/energy/or in some way "virtual" itself? 'cause I wrote this great scene where a guilt-ridden Admiral gets himself drunk before interstellar travel as a form of self-punishment and upchucks lightning during the transition...

Lol, strange image. An object transiting a wormhole would behave just as one that isn't. There's nothing special happening to change the laws of physics.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

if this technology were possible we could go so far away for example millions/billions of light years away in seconds, would this mean we could see the reminence of the big bang?

We can see the reminence of the big bang now, just look in any direction.

 

[r4z0r84]

We can see the reminence of the big bang now, just look in any direction.

reminisce - Indulge in enjoyable recollection of past events (excuse my bad english)
By that i ment before time itself, as in before the big bang we can see the past events leading upto the big bang.

If it were possible to travel over 14.6 billion light years away in any direction (judging that we are in the middle of the universe) in an instant. we could see first hand exactly what happened.

The amount of power needed to do that with an FTL drive would be like two suns colliding if not more. hence you would require a wormhole.

This would allow a greater understanding of our universe. and in the same regard, we could go back in time to give our technology to earlier lifeforms, cave men with mining lasers for example.

But in all terms of sci fi ftl jumping after an alien race for example there would be so much time dilation that there would be nothing left to take them to. this is the one thing i never believed with star trek and star wars regardless of if the technology is available, wormholes are the only way it would be possible to not physically go back in time. as your physical body is not moving faster than the speed of light, in the same regard just moving at the speed of light so much time would go by for everyone else they would die from old age before catching one another.

 

[r4z0r84]

There are many other issues with traveling close to the speed of light, for one due to our increased speed we have increased mass, meaning we would require more energy to be moved faster or to maintain that speed, not to mention a pin head worth of blood would weigh more then a standard school bus. also due to thermodynamics the amount of head generated our blood would boil before well before the speed of light and the accuracy required not to smash into nearby planets while traveling at that speed is close to impossible and finally there is more in space than nothing, every few square cm's there are atoms. so for hard sci fi this would not work wormholes would be the only viable option for extreme space exploration.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

reminisce - Indulge in enjoyable recollection of past events (excuse my bad english)
By that i ment before time itself, as in before the big bang we can see the past events leading upto the big bang.

If it were possible to travel over 14.6 billion light years away in any direction (judging that we are in the middle of the universe) in an instant. we could see first hand exactly what happened.

Autocorrect bodged that, it was meant to be "remnants" look in any direction and if you look far enough you will see the big bang. As the big bang had no centre don't need to look for a specific place.

 

[Nimbian]

Dang you Autocorrect and your proper spelling of words we aren't trying to use!

Happens to me all the time... Probably noticed.

 

[ReaverKing]

Star Trek and Star Wars both use the concept of "parallel realities" where there different laws of physics that don't have the problem of "Einstien's cage" (ex. "supspace", "hyperspace", "null space", etc.) While this is potentially possible, blowing up galaxies isn't exactly the most efficient way to travel.

Now warping empty or near-empty bits of space-time and nailing them together while you quickly nip across on the other hand...

 

[Ryan_m_b]

Star Trek and Star Wars both use the concept of "parallel realities" where there different laws of physics that don't have the problem of "Einstien's cage" (ex. "supspace", "hyperspace", "null space", etc.) While this is potentially possible, blowing up galaxies isn't exactly the most efficient way to travel.

Now warping empty or near-empty bits of space-time and nailing them together while you quickly nip across on the other hand...

I don't get what you mean by nailing together, why not just have a moving warp bubble?

There are many other issues with traveling close to the speed of light, for one due to our increased speed we have increased mass, meaning we would require more energy to be moved faster or to maintain that speed, not to mention a pin head worth of blood would weigh more then a standard school bus. also due to thermodynamics the amount of head generated our blood would boil before well before the speed of light and the accuracy required not to smash into nearby planets while traveling at that speed is close to impossible and finally there is more in space than nothing, every few square cm's there are atoms. so for hard sci fi this would not work wormholes would be the only viable option for extreme space exploration.

There is a lot of misinformation here. Firstly the idea of relativistic mass is a bit dated (search the forum for treads on why) but secondly from the frame of reference of the ship nothing has changed. They don't get hotter, or more massive, or slower etc. Also in a vacuum you don't need to expend energy to maintain speed.

Lastly space is mostly empty, you aren't going to be crashing into any planets. As for the occasional spec of dust that is a problem but usually in SF when near light speed travel is used there is some sort of shield such as a large solar sail projected ahead or a thick caul of ice etc.

One of the key aspects of Sci-fi is the tension between the "familliar" and the "alien". A society that uses "cold sleep" space travel runs into two very difficult problems:

1. In order to travel anywhere the characters wind up isolated in a metal box while great stretches fo time go by.

2. The interstellar economy and traffic would look nothing like travel between cities of nations on Earth today.

Just to note very good SF can be written to explore both of these concepts in a way that is interesting and has ramifications on concepts we have in real life i.e. providing context in which to understand international trade by exploring the differences between that and interplanetory. Conversely trying to force current conventions on to speculative scenarios can often feel contrived.

 

[Nimbian]

I don't get what you mean by nailing together, why not just have a moving warp bubble?

I think ReaverKing was either referring to Folding space, or using Wormholes to by pass the empty space in between

Lastly space is mostly empty, you aren't going to be crashing into any planets. As for the occasional spec of dust that is a problem but usually in SF when near light speed travel is used there is some sort of shield such as a large solar sail projected ahead or a thick caul of ice etc.

I even read a Novel where that was the main point of a stopover, to get more Ice for the shield. Damage to the a solar sail on the other hand, could be really bad.

While I don't remember the reference I remember reading that Brown Dwarf "stars" may be as common as 2:1 to traditional stars. So stellar Objects may be more common then we think, and there is also the question of where Dark Matter is located.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

I even read a Novel where that was the main point of a stopover, to get more Ice for the shield.

Was that an Al Reynolds book by any chance?

Damage to the a solar sail on the other hand, could be really bad.

Not especially, the idea is that it's light second dead ahead (in fact there might be many of them). The idea is that they redirect, destroy or "slow down" objects on a collision course (the latter may allow time to dodge). Then the ship could manufacture/deploy replacements.

While I don't remember the reference I remember reading that Brown Dwarf "stars" may be as common as 2:1 to traditional stars. So stellar Objects may be more common then we think, and there is also the question of where Dark Matter is located.

One thing about space is that it's pretty easy to see through. A brown dwarf would certainly be noticeable by heat and mass, dark matter ditto for the later. Small things would be a problem but that's what the shields would be for.

 

[Nimbian]

Alastair Reynolds?
No I don't think I have. Most of the SF reading I did was pre 2002 when I lived within walking distance to the Public Library, and had money to buy books, new and used. I'll have to look up his works thou.

I'm not saying they couldn't fix damage to the solar sail. but the more mass you bring the slower over all acceleration it will have, or the larger sail you'll need, or a larger/more powerful Laser projector at the origin star. (assuming you were thinking about that method,and not another system that I'm currently unaware of)

Also detecting things by Heat and Mass, is fine before the speed of light, but the name of the thread is FTL not STL :) I was just pointing out difficulties if applied to an FTL drive.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

Alastair Reynolds?
No I don't think I have. Most of the SF reading I did was pre 2002 when I lived within walking distance to the Public Library, and had money to buy books, new and used. I'll have to look up his works thou.

He's very good for hard SF space opera.

I'm not saying they couldn't fix damage to the solar sail.

(Laser sail) The idea is that they are disposable, fixing them is pointless.

but the more mass you bring the slower over all acceleration it will have, or the larger sail you'll need, or a larger/more powerful Laser projector at the origin star. (assuming you were thinking about that method,and not another system that I'm currently unaware of)

I was talking about projecting the laser sails ahead of a craft to protect it from impacts at high fractions of the speed of light. Although it could perhaps also work for multiple starwisps in a line, perhaps each one transparent to the light that the next ones are pushed by (though that is probably impossible).

Also detecting things by Heat and Mass, is fine before the speed of light, but the name of the thread is FTL not STL :) I was just pointing out difficulties if applied to an FTL drive.

Mostly it's not a problem for FTL in SF because most involves taking short cuts, either by jumping point to point or using a wormhole or entering some form of hyperspace. Even things like warp drive tend to include technobabble about them warping the space around them to bend objects out of their path until they have past.

 

[Nimbian]

(Laser sail) The idea is that they are disposable, fixing them is pointless.

Repair would not be pointless. How would the ship manage deceleration once it reaches it Travel Midpoint? The more damage the sail takes the sooner they have to start decelerating, with further damage complicating matters further.

Another problem thou easily managed would be damage causing sails to "Pull" in a direction that isn't the intended course. Easily corrected since it would be a near trivial task to change the center of mass, the ships location, by shortening and lengthening tethers and thus compensating for sail loss

I was talking about projecting the laser sails ahead of a craft to protect it from impacts at high fractions of the speed of light. Although it could perhaps also work for multiple starwisps in a line, perhaps each one transparent to the light that the next ones are pushed by (though that is probably impossible).

A Stacked Laser Sail array would be possible but would still be vulnerable to above listed problems.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

Repair would not be pointless.

I think you misunderstand. The sail is not used for propulsion, it is a shield deployed ahead of the craft to hit objects in the way to either deflect, destroy or "slow them down" to protect the craft which is traveling at near C.

 

[Nimbian]

Ah well that would be a different concept altogether, and altogether more plausible