Flux in different coordinate systems

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the calculation of flux from a Poynting vector in different coordinate systems, particularly focusing on the transformation of measurements from a flat area detector to another orientation and position. The conversation touches on the mathematical complexities involved in this transformation, including the use of Jacobians and the limitations of the divergence theorem in this context.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Exploratory

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents a Poynting vector in spherical coordinates and seeks to understand how to calculate pixel values from a detector when its orientation changes, noting the complexity due to the lack of a closed surface.
  • Another participant inquires about the concept of "unfixed co-ordinate system mathematics" and its relation to tensors, suggesting a connection to vector spaces without a chosen basis.
  • A further response elaborates on tensor products and their properties, indicating a lack of practical understanding of their implications despite grasping the theoretical aspects.
  • Another participant provides context on the physical applications of tensor theory, mentioning its relevance to calculus in arbitrary coordinate systems and the relationship to Euclidean spaces.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express varying levels of understanding regarding the mathematical concepts involved, particularly in relation to tensors and coordinate systems. There is no consensus on the best approach to the original problem posed, and multiple viewpoints on the implications of tensor mathematics are presented.

Contextual Notes

The discussion includes assumptions about the nature of the Poynting vector and the transformations involved, as well as the limitations of certain mathematical tools like the divergence theorem in this scenario. Specific definitions and conditions related to the coordinate systems and tensor calculus are not fully resolved.

Wox
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I have an electromagnetic field with a Poynting vector that has the following form in spherical coordinates:
$$\bar{P}(R,\phi,\theta)=\frac{f(\phi,\theta)}{R^2}\bar{e}_{r}$$
The exact nature of [itex]f(\phi,\theta)[/itex] is not known. Suppose I measure the flux of this vector field by a flat area detector. The pixel values of an image acquired by such a detector are given by
$$I_{\text{pixel}}(x,y)=\iint_{\text{pixel}} \bar{P} \cdot \bar{\text{d}S}=\iint_{\text{pixel}} \left\|\bar{P}(x,y)\right\|\cos(\alpha(x,y))\ \text{d}x\text{d}y$$
where [itex]\alpha[/itex] the (known) angle between detector surface and Poynting vector and [itex]XY[/itex] the detector plane in the detector reference frame [itex]XYZ[/itex] for which we know the relation to the [itex]\bar{P}[/itex] coordinate system. From this I want to know the pixel values as would have been measured when the detector had another orientation and position with respect to the origin of [itex]\bar{P}[/itex]
$$\begin{bmatrix}x'\\y'\\z'\\1 \end{bmatrix} =L\cdot\begin{bmatrix}x\\y\\z\\1\end{bmatrix}$$
where [itex]L[/itex] a know composition of rotations and translations or even for a spherical detector. How can I do this? The Jacobian can be used when the transformation only involved the detector plane [itex]XY[/itex]. However this is not the case and I can also not use the divergence theorem, since we don't have a closed surface. Any ideas on how to approach this?
 
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Hey Wox.

Have you encountered unfixed co-ordinate system mathematics and calculus through tensors?
 
I'm not sure what you mean by "unfixed co-ordinate system mathematics". You mean vector spaces without choosing a basis?

As for tensors, this is what I know: a tensor product of two vector spaces [itex]V[/itex] and [itex]W[/itex] both over field [itex]K[/itex] is a pair [itex](T,\otimes)[/itex] where [itex]T[/itex] a vector space over [itex]K[/itex] and [itex]\otimes\colon V\times W\rightarrow T[/itex] a bilinear map with the property that for any bilinear map [itex]B_{L}\colon V\times W\rightarrow X[/itex] with [itex]X[/itex] a vector space over [itex]K[/itex], there exists a unique linear map [itex]F_{\otimes}\colon T\rightarrow X[/itex] so that [itex]B_{L}=F_{\otimes}\circ\otimes[/itex]. Furthermore if [itex](T,\otimes)[/itex] and [itex](T',\otimes')[/itex] are two tensor products of [itex]V[/itex] and [itex]W[/itex] then there exists a unique isomorphism [itex]F\colon T\rightarrow T'[/itex] such that [itex]\otimes'=F\circ\otimes[/itex]. Although I understand what all this says (I know vector spaces, bilinear maps, linear maps, bijective linear maps = vector space isomorphisms), I don't really grasp the idea or the practical implications. But any suggestions you have are welcome, if I don't understand I'll try to learn it.
 
The application physically is widespread:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Application_of_tensor_theory_in_physics

It has to do with what you are saying, but basically you have identities that deal with things like del, grad, differentiation and integration in arbitrary co-ordinate systems by relating them back to Euclidean since we have a developed theory in R^n.

The isomorphism is the best attribute that captures the description but instead of just thinking about vector spaces, add the results of calculus to that and you have a good idea of how its used.
 

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