Will Israel's Strikes Escalate to Full-Scale War?

[edward]

Did I say it was an excuse for anything? What happened to "other side of the coin"? What happened to "take X with a grain of salt"?

OK I see your point, but did you ever stop to think that you may be creating more terrorists than you are killing by using Lebanon as you're punching bag?

 

[Yonoz]

OK I see your point, but did you ever stop to think that you may be creating more terrorists than you are killing by using Lebanon as you're punching bag?

No one is using Lebanon as their punching bag. More than 1400 rockets have landed in Israel so far, not counting mortar shells. That is a clear threat to Israeli civilians. These weapons and their operators are hiding inside a civilian population. Israel is forced to defend its citizens, even at the price of raising anger.
BTW I suggest you look at the article about Zvi Yehezkeli, I admire the man. Israelis are not blind to the matters in Lebanon.

 

[slugcountry]

Nor is Lebanon blind to the matters of Israel - has it ever occurred to you that an invasion and world-wide attention is exactly what hizbollah was after?

 

[Yonoz]

Nor is Lebanon blind to the matters of Israel - has it ever occurred to you that an invasion and world-wide attention is exactly what hizbollah was after?

Even so should we just sit while our cities are being attacked? It seems to elude many people that Israel is being attacked here in the most vile way. I know of no country that would allow that to continue.

 

[Anttech]

Even so should we just sit while our cities are being attacked?

Nope but cutting your own nose off to spite your face isn't going to help either. Which is what you are doing.

 

[Yonoz]

Nope but cutting your own nose off to spite your face isn't going to help either. Which is what you are doing.

Spare the obscure proverbs. Can you offer an alternative way of protecting Israeli civilians?

 

[kyleb]

A practical example would be; the Israelis who go into rebuild the houses of Palestinians don't suffer the same hostilities faced by the ones who tear the down.

 

[Yonoz]

Let's not confuse Lebanon and the occupied territories - it's nothing short of ignorance. My question still stands - can anyone offer an alternative way for the Israeli leadership to protect its civilians?

 

[Anttech]

Its all inter-related, and to dismiss the problems in the occupied territories as nothing to do with the current campaign would be ignorant

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

Let's not confuse Lebanon and the occupied territories - it's nothing short of ignorance. My question still stands - can anyone offer an alternative way for the Israeli leadership to protect its civilians?

Long term peace, I thought I mentioned that already? The only real solution.

 

[Yonoz]

Its all inter-related, and to dismiss the problems in the occupied territories as nothing to do with the current campaign would be ignorant

Still, I asked what alternatives there are for Israel to protect its civilians from the rockets fired out of Lebanon, and was met with not-so-much-as-an-answer-but-some-sort-of-unrelated-example(?) regarding the rebuilding of Palestinian houses, which only occurred in Gaza and the West Bank.
Perhaps you have a real answer to my question.

 

[kyleb]

Let's not confuse Lebanon and the occupied territories - it's nothing short of ignorance.

You know those occupied territories have cultural and religious significance all Muslims, as we already agreed upon here. I'm also sure you know Hezbollah is looking to exchange your solders for Palestinian prisoners along with their own people. So please don't try to play this of as me being ignorant, here as that is most certainly not the case; and feigning ignorance to claim otherwise only serves to ignore my point.

My question still stands - can anyone offer an alternative way for the Israeli leadership to protect its civilians?

And my answer still stands as a practical example. In general terms I'll defer to a man much wiser than myself, Ramana Maharshi, who expanded upon an ancient Buddhist teaching with his statement; "Wanting to transform the world without discovering one's true self is like trying to cover the whole world with leather to avoid the pain of walking on stones and thorns. It is much simpler to wear shoes."

 

[Anttech]

Yonzo,

Perhaps you would like to re-read some of my post in this thread. I have given alternatives already.

Let me outline them again.

International Peace Keeping force in South Lebanon, with teeth, and the remit of bolstering up the Lebanon Governments control.

Stop all hostilities, and stop demanding the impossible right now, ie Hezbollah to disarm.

If Hostilities have to continue, appropriate human rights, must be followed, and civilians should not be targeted, and UN convoys need to not be bombed and allowed to help the 600,000 refugees and displaced civilians.

Appropriate NEUTRAL mediator between Israel and Palistein for future pull out of occupied territories.

Less lopsided politics and help from USA.

 

[Yonoz]

Yonzo,

Perhaps you would like to re-read some of my post in this thread. I have given alternatives already.

Let me outline them again.

International Peace Keeping force in South Lebanon, with teeth, and the remit of bolstering up the Lebanon Governments control.

So far there hasn't been a single agreement on such a force - no one is willing to put their troops in Lebanon - and this is during hostilities, when it's on the top of everyone's priorities! I've shown you Israel's appeals to the UN and the weak response they recieved. The ball was in the UN and Lebanon's court, and they dropped it.

Stop all hostilities, and stop demanding the impossible right now, ie Hezbollah to disarm.

Our civilians are being attacked. Do you really expect us not to defend ourselves?! You are so "understanding" to terrorists and radicals but you do not recognise this basic right of self-defence? Get some sense man, this isn't a random shooting, it's not a wave of suicide attacks. It's been two weeks, and normal life in the north of Israel is paralyzed. More than a third of the population moved away. The rest are in shelters. Businesses are closed. Public transport is intermittent. Home carers for the elderly don't show up. There aren't enough firefighters to deal with all the fires, they're only concentrating on preventing the fires from reaching population centres. No country in the world would allow this to happen.

If Hostilities have to continue, appropriate human rights, must be followed, and civilians should not be targeted, and UN convoys need to not be bombed and allowed to help the 600,000 refugees and displaced civilians.

Everything is done in accordance with international law. Civilians aren't targetted. UN convoys have been operating for over a week now. The Ministry of Foreign Affairs is coordinating the relief effort with the military. One of history's largest naval evacuations took place without a hitch, in full coordination with the Navy. A few Lebanese wounded are treated in Israeli hospitals. A landing strip in Beirut has been authorized for humanitarian purposes, and the Jordanian Military used it to deploy a mobile hospital. Israel has no interest in harming the Lebanese people.

Appropriate NEUTRAL mediator between Israel and Palistein for future pull out of occupied territories.

The government has declared and began legislation for the second phase of the disengagement plan. There is mediation between Israel and the Hamas leadership regarding the cessation of hostilites in the Gaza strip and the return of kidnapped soldier.

Less lopsided politics and help from USA.

I'm not familiar with the term "lopsided politics", but it sounds like catch-phrase. Let's try and stick to the specifics. I don't see how accepting less help from the USA is beneficial to Israel. Why not just say "stop buying weapons" or "don't use shelters so you get a higher civilian death count". Makes just as much sense.

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

Still, I asked what alternatives there are for Israel to protect its civilians from the rockets fired out of Lebanon, and was met with not-so-much-as-an-answer-but-some-sort-of-unrelated-example(?) regarding the rebuilding of Palestinian houses, which only occurred in Gaza and the West Bank.
Perhaps you have a real answer to my question.

Sorry I had 30 seconds to answer you, I knew what you meant and was being flippant. honestly no offence intended. I was going to put a smilee on it but I never got time, very busy ATM.

I think people have already mentioned that you should have workjed with the Lebanese government from the start, I also think something as small fry as this should not of been used as an excuse to tackle Hezbollah (hezbollah needs a carefully considered strategy IMO, not a kneejerk over reaction) You mentioned that you can't always excpected to be the grown up, I disagree in the situation you are in that's what you should be trying to uphold in every situation(up 'til now the wolrd has seen /Israel as the more moderate and "grown" up party, this works in your favour in diplomatic meetings,I tihnk it's wise to always appear to be thoughtful in your approach to situations, look what happens when you don't.

Initial solution, use your experienced intelligence gorups to locate the soldiers, most likely out come to that was they are going to be killed before you find them, and creating a war in Lebanon is not exactly going to make them easy to find, if you are at least pretending what this is about you blew it by making there recovery almost impossible.

OK as Kofi Anan said in his adress to the security councli - I'm afraid I'm going to have to find this later - but he mentioned that he saw this as an excuse used by Israel to take out Hezbollah. he condemened Hezbollah straight off the bat though, he advised working towards a cease fire and condemend Israel for the civillian caualties whilst acknowledging Israels right to tackle Hezbolah, he was carefull to remain impartial, with this in mind, it might of been wise after the initial phase mentioned above to also seek out the UN and or the US and ask if it would be possible to insert a security force in the area with Israeli cooperation, in a joint land offensive to secure the area, possibly with the Help of the Labenese government also, with US logistics and methods the civillian casualties would have been much less(they are well aware of how much grief hitting hospitals etc can bring there way) Also the west would have seen a will to resolve this situation in a "diplomatic" manner at least in the planning stages. Not being an expert I have no idea if this would have been viable, but it sounds reasonable. we're all armchair generalling this one :)

 

[Anttech]

Our civilians are being attacked. Do you really expect us not to defend ourselves?! You are so "understanding" to terrorists and radicals but you do not recognise this basic right of self-defence? Get some sense man, this isn't a random shooting, it's not a wave of suicide attacks.

You are kidding yourself if you believe what is going on could be called self-defence. You have killed over 400 people in Lebanon now. Hezbollah have killed about 40 Israeli's. What is happening is you are attacking Hezbollah, using the smoke screen of self-defence, "Well they started it". You are going for the proverbial jugular. Which is very short sighted I may add.

Look I understand your basic need to defend yourselfs, but I do not understand why you are using such brutal force.

Look at the bloody stats:

600,000 people in 2 weeks have been made refugees or displaced.
400 people (mostly civilian) have been killed
All major Bridges have been destroyed, and some eyewitnesses are saying also the foundations have been bombed, which I find peculiar.
You have attacked and disrupted most Television stations
You have bombed the Beruit Airport Runway
You have completely annihilated the south of Beruit
You have attacked the UN observers
You have Bomb Civilian truck convoys
Eye witness have stated that Factories making food have been hit
Major Roads used to evacuate Displaced civilians have been hit
Aid convoys have been hit by Israeli planes

And still the US is shipping more rockets and ammo to you!

This is not self defence, its an all out attack on Lebanon.

 

[Anttech]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5219360.stm
All southerners terrorists'

He added that Israel had given the civilians of southern Lebanon ample time to quit the area and therefore anyone still remaining there can be considered Hezbollah supporters.

"All those now in south Lebanon are terrorists who are related in some way to Hezbollah," Mr Ramon said.

What a clever man.

Perhaps there are people who are too scared to leave, or physically cant. You can't give yourselfs a carte blancs to kill anybody you see.

"We received yesterday at the Rome conference permission from the world... to continue the operation," Justice Minister Haim Ramon said.

Apart from the UN stating very clearly that the Hostilities must stop.

 

[Yonoz]

You are kidding yourself if you believe what is going on could be called self-defence. You have killed over 400 people in Lebanon now. Hezbollah have killed about 40 Israeli's. What is happening is you are attacking Hezbollah, using the smoke screen of self-defence, "Well they started it". You are going for the proverbial jugular. Which is very short sighted I may add.

Should we apologize for having too low a casualty count?!
Should we apologize for building and maintaining bomb shelters, at great expense may I add? Should we apologize for having an experienced state of the art military? Should we apologize for the fact that our population and economy are strong? Should we apologize for governing our own country? Should we apologize for Hizbullah's human shield strategy? Should we apologize for trying to stop the daily firing of dozens of rockets at our cities? THIS IS A SERIOUS RISK TO OUR CIVILIAN POPULATION. WE'RE LUCKY TO HAVE SO FEW CASUALTIES. WE'RE LUCKY NO ROCKETS LANDED IN THE PETROCHEMICAL INDUSTRIES IN HAIFA. Show me one country that would behave differently when faced with such a grave threat to its citizens.

Look I understand your basic need to defend yourselfs, but I do not understand why you are using such brutal force.

It is not brutal force. See that NY Times article.

BEIRUT, Lebanon, July 24 — The Paul Restaurant is still serving elegant lunches of prosciutto and chèvre. At the Printania, an elegant hotel on a hill east of the capital, stylish guests sip Arabic coffee near a glass display case of éclairs and chilled chocolate mousse.

FYI the restaurants in Haifa are all closed.

Look at the bloody stats:

600,000 people in 2 weeks have been made refugees or displaced.

So has 1/3rd of northern Israel's population.

400 people (mostly civilian) have been killed

1400 rockets landed in Israel, each with the potential to kill a large number of people by expelling supersonic pellets to high distances. One such rocket killed 8 railway workers. Hizbullah is trying to hit the petrochemical industries in Haifa, in a hope to create an environmental disaster.

All major Bridges have been destroyed, and some eyewitnesses are saying also the foundations have been bombed, which I find peculiar.
Major Roads used to evacuate Displaced civilians have been hit.

Those are legitimate targets that have prevented the flow of more rockets and launchers closer to the border, distancing many Israelis from danger. The foundations play a major role in keeping the bridge up as you may know, it's quite probable they'd get damaged if the bridge is knocked down.

You have attacked and disrupted most Television stations

Israel has attacked Hizbullah's Al-Manar TV and radio station, and has bombed communication infrastructure such as antennae that Hizbullah uses.

You have bombed the Beruit Airport Runway

In full compliance with international law, to stop more weapons coming in and the kidnapped soldiers moved out.

You have completely annihilated the south of Beruit

Only the Dahiya neighbourhood was majorly affected and that neighbourhood was a giant Hizbullah compund.

You have attacked the UN observers
You have Bomb Civilian truck convoys

Unfortunate incidents that need to be inverstigated. Civilians and and the UN are not targetted intentionally. Entire convoys were not attacked. Many more trucks carrying weapons have also been destroyed, you don't hear that on the news, do you?

Eye witness have stated that Factories making food have been hit

Food is in no shortage in Lebanon. Eyewitness reports are not facts.

Aid convoys have been hit by Israeli planes

Absolutely false.

And still the US is shipping more rockets and ammo to you!

Of course it is. Iran is also shipping more weapons to Hizbullah. Why don't you run up to complain to them?

This is not self defence, its an all out attack on Lebanon.

False.

 

[Yonoz]

What a clever man.

Perhaps there are people who are too scared to leave, or physically cant. You can't give yourselfs a carte blancs to kill anybody you see.

Seriously, if you're still in south Lebanon it's not because you're scared or disabled.

Apart from the UN stating very clearly that the Hostilities must stop.

Then let them enforce UNSC resolution 1559.

 

[Anttech]

Should we apologize for having too low a casualty count?!

No you should apologise to lebanon for killing so many innocent people.

Should we apologize for building and maintaining bomb shelters, at great expense may I add?

No

Should we apologize for having an experienced state of the art military?

nope, but you should probably say thank-you.

Should we apologize for the fact that our population and economy are strong?

Nope

Should we apologize for governing our own country?

Nope, but you should acknowledge that your imediate neighbours are suffering, and your 'strong' population and 'strong' ecconomy should be helping them

Should we apologize for Hizbullah's human shield strategy?

No but you should not use it as an excuse, which is what you are clearly doing

Should we apologize for trying to stop the daily firing of dozens of rockets at our cities?

Nope, but your war has actually increased the amount of rockets, so you government should be appologising to you for being wrong about its tactics

Aid convoys have been hit by Israeli planes

Absolutely false.

Aid convoys have been hit by Israeli air strikes in the south. Six Lebanese Red Cross paramedics were wounded in an Israeli strike on Sunday http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5216326.stm

 

[Yonoz]

No you should apologise to lebanon for killing so many innocent people.

I've yet to see anyone apologize to Israel for Israeli civilians killed. Our civilians are purposefuly targetted, theirs aren't. We should not apologize for protecting our own civilians.

nope, but you should probably say thank-you.

I thought you were against foreign influence on countries in this region. Sudden change of heart?

Nope, but you should acknowledge that your imediate neighbours are suffering, and your 'strong' population and 'strong' ecconomy should be helping them

Oh but we are. Believe me, it would be easiest to end this quickly with a massive bombardment, without waiting for civilians to leave. We could carpet bomb entire villages like has been done by many other countries in the recent past. Instead we send our troops in, and some of them don't come back. That is a price WE PAY to avoid unnecessary civilian deaths. You don't seem to appreciate that at all.

No but you should not use it as an excuse, which is what you are clearly doing

An excuse? Shame on you. Hizbullah are attacking us from behind innocent people and now you're saying we're using that as an excuse? Is every time Israel is attacked simply an excuse to kill Arabs? Who do you think we are?

Nope, but your war has actually increased the amount of rockets, so you government should be appologising to you for being wrong about its tactics

Hahaha now we're guilty of being fired upon. Hyppocrite.

 

[Anttech]

You like to read what you want, don't you?

An excuse? Shame on you. Hizbullah are attacking us from behind innocent people and now you're saying we're using that as an excuse? Is every time Israel is attacked simply an excuse to kill Arabs? Who do you think we are?

You are Arabs with a different religion that others, but you are Arabs neither the less. You are using the fact that (disgusting as it is) hezbollah are using gurrilea warfair tactics against you, as the excuse behind the disproportional amount of Lebanese lifes that have been taken.

nope, but you should probably say thank-you.
I thought you were against foreign influence on countries in this region. Sudden change of heart?

I was being Ironic! Its part of the problem you know, the lopsided generosity that has been shown to Israel as oppose to any other ME country. People arent stupid, they see this with there own eyes. Look at Palestine, its literally, inside Israel yet it is so poor.

I've yet to see anyone apologize to Israel for Israeli civilians killed. Our civilians are purposefully targeted, theirs aren't. We should not apologize for protecting our own civilians.

Honestly, don't take this the wrong way, because it isn't directed at you: I don't believe that you (The Israli army) are not purposefully targeting civilians. This was proven to the world after you purposefully targeted a UN Observation post, using Laser guided Missiles after the Unarmed Observers had radioed to your Army 10 times they were there. That was the UN, who are protected up to the eyeballs with treaties and international coverage. I can imagine what must be happening in Beruit to ordinary noncombantants. And as a matter of fact, we don't need to imagine, we can just go and read up on the last time you shelled Beruit in the conquest of defeting the PLO.

 

[Anttech]

http://www.worldpolicy.org/projects/arms/reports/israel.lebanon.FINAL2.pdf

During the Bush administration, from 2001 to 2005, Israel has actually received
more in U.S. military aid than it has in U.S. arms deliveries. Over this time period
Israel received $10.5 billion in Foreign Military Financing – the Pentagon’s biggest
military aid program – and $6.3 billion in U.S. arms deliveries. The aid figure is
larger than the arms transfer figure because it includes financing for major arms
agreements for which the equipment has yet to be fully delivered. The most prominent of
these deals is a $4.5 billion sale of 102 Lockheed Martin F-16s to Israel. “When it comes
to getting arms from the U.S., Israel has money in the bank,” noted Hartung.
There are precedents for U.S. criticism of Israel’s use of weapons in human rights abuses,
including “extrajudicial killings” and “excessive use of force.” In the State Department’s
human rights reports for 2003, 2004, and 2005, incidents mentioned include missile
strikes on a refugee camp that killed six people and wounded 19; the shooting and killing
of four Palestinian children; the demolition of Palestinian homes using tank shells, heavy
machine guns, and rockets (deemed an excessive use of force); the use of rocket fire in
targeted killing of leaders of Hamas; the killing of 47 civilian bystanders in an operation
aimed at suspected terrorists in the occupied territories; and the use of tank shells,
machine-gun rounds and rockets fired from aircraft against Palestinian towns and cities

Surely This should stop until we can establish if the Israeli's are not breaking human rights laws, like what happened when Regan was in power!

During the last major Israeli incursion into Lebanon, in 1981, the Reagan administration
cut off U.S. military aid and arms deliveries for ten weeks while it investigated whether
Israel was using weapons for “defensive purposes,” as required under U.S. law.

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

A few things are clear, the west has condemned Israel for it's "attrocities", UN officials visitng the area have already mentioned the breaches of humanitarian law in Israels attacks(you can specualte all you like on what that will mean) It's going to be hard to convince anyone what you did is right or justified under the considerable pressure from outside the Middle East, it's too late for that now anyway, you should be looking at damage limitation ATM, making the utmost effort to only target military targets and avoiding areas where this is not possible, maybe using small elite forces to take out areas where civillians still remain, i.e being more discriminatory. Reputation repair.

The UN cannot enforce any resolution against Israel particularly not the ones you mentioned, the US will veto any action taken against Israel atm, which is why many of the 170+ resolutions you face have never been enforced, however we appreciate when you try to conform to them of your own free will, because there is no threat implicit in them, sanctions can and will not be imposed while big brother is escalating this one sided campaign and refusing to acknowledge the existence of the other sides involved. It is plain to see that the US has moved away from a more impartial overseer and part of the blame for the middle East situation should be laid at there door for losing perspective.

Another point I'd like to make is that you guys are repeating yoursleves a fair bit, and both of you are ignoring good points made by the other. I think personally the discussion needs to move forward because playing the blame game against Israel is all very well but 20 pages later twe still haven't convinced Yonoz that what Israel did is wrong, do you think there is much chance we ever can?

OK Yonoz I put up a suggestion of how to handle the situation, it appears you had no interest in someone answering your question or that you did not like my answer, in either case can we ask what you would have done in this situation, everything the same or perhaps changed your tack? Time for you assume the position of arm chair general, since you are obviously in the most knowledgeable position, living as you do in Israel and having had experience with the situation first hand, what is it you would have done, would do now, and will do to tackle the situation in the future?

 

[Hurkyl]

You are Arabs with a different religion that others, but you are Arabs neither the less. You are using the fact that (disgusting as it is) hezbollah are using gurrilea warfair tactics against you, as the excuse behind the disproportional amount of Lebanese lifes that have been taken.

If you're going to accuse Israel if actually wanting to slaughter Lebanese citizens, then come right out and say it.

 

[Anttech]

Wanting is a very strong term, and not the one I used, nor will.

Deliberate killing of civilians, and UN Observers because of the Israeli perceived need to and specifically in the context of trying to destroy Hezbollah is different than *wanting* to.

Are you trying to get an emotional reaction, Hurkyl?

 

[Anttech]

http://www.itv.com/news/world_783f5cda9528072c5e0da70ea805110e.html
The second in command to Osama bin Laden has warned that al-Qaeda will not stand idle while Israelis "burn the Muslim brothers in Gaza and Lebanon".

In a reference to the US and its allies the deputy leader of al-Qaeda, Ayman al-Zawahiri, said that the bombs being dropped on Lebanon "are not purely Israeli but provided and financed by all the crusaders alliance countries."

In a taped message broadcast by the Arab satellite network al-Jazeera, Zawahiri said that al-Qaeda now saw "all the world as a battlefield open in front of us."

Zawahiri wore a grey robe and white turban. A picture of the burning World Trade Centre was on the wall behind him along with pictures of two other militants.

Blah Blah Blah. of course Al-Qaeda had to get in on the action. So I wonder where they stand on the Christians and Jews that are being bombed by Israel in Lebanon? I wonder what exactly they intend on doing? Considering they are Sunni's not Sh'ites.

 

[mbrmbrg]

Are you trying to get an emotional reaction, Hurkyl?

It seems to me like the last two pages have been pretty emotional all around, maybe the al queada angle won't get so emotional (unless, of course, some of our posters are al qeada members )

This was in yesterday's NY Times:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/26/opinion/26haykel.html?_r=1&oref=slogin"

what if everyone just imploded out of frustration?? in my dreams...

 

[Yonoz]

Just popped into post this: http://www.nysun.com/article/36860"

A Canadian U.N. observer, one of four killed at a UNIFIL position near the southern Lebanese town of Khiyam on Tuesday, sent an e-mail to his former commander, a Canadian retired major-general, Lewis MacKenzie, in which he wrote that Hezbollah fighters were "all over" the U.N. position, Mr. MacKenzie said. Hezbollah troops, not the United Nations, were Israel's target, the deceased observer wrote.

"We've received e-mails from him a few days ago and he was describing the fact that he was taking fire within, in one case, three meters of his position ‘for tactical necessity — not being targeted,'" Mr. MacKenzie said he wrote.

In one such e-mail, obtained by The New York Sun, Hess-von Kruedener wrote about heavy IDF artillery and aerial bombardment "within 2 meters of our position." The Israeli shooting, he added, "has not been deliberate targeting, but has rather been due to tactical necessity."

The correspondence between the trooper and former commander amounted to "veiled speech in the military," Mr. MacKenzie, who once commanded the U.N. troops in Bosnia, told the CBC. "What he was telling us was Hezbollah fighters were all over his position and the IDF were targeting them, and that's a favorite trick by people who don't have representation in the U.N. They use the U.N. as shields knowing that they cannot be punished for it."

 

[Hurkyl]

Wanting is a very strong term, and not the one I used, nor will.

Deliberate killing of civilians, and UN Observers because of the Israeli perceived need to and specifically in the context of trying to destroy Hezbollah is different than *wanting* to.

Are you trying to get an emotional reaction, Hurkyl?

No, I am not trying to get an emotional reaction.

Your last couple posts sounded like a thinly veiled accusation that Israelis have a desire to kill Lebanese civilians, and were jumping upon this opportunity to get away with it under the pretense of self defense.

However, it wasn't crystal clear, and I wanted you to come out and say it if that's what you meant.

But "want" was maybe too strong a word, since it still sounds like the you're saying the thing I thought you were saying.

Deliberate killing of civilians, and UN Observers because of the Israeli perceived need to​

This sounds very much like you're saying that, for the Israelis, the point of this war is to kill civilians.

 

[kyleb]

Just popped into post this: http://www.nysun.com/article/36860"

That is curious:

The statement said the Security Council "is deeply shocked an distressed by the firing by the Israeli Defense Forces on a United Nations Observer post in southern Lebanon on 25 July, 2006, which caused the death of four U.N. military observers."

Israel has apologized and called the incident a mistake. U.N. officials said they asked Israel a dozen times to stop bombing near the post in the hours before it was destroyed.
...

Israel's U.N. ambassador, Dan Gillerman, called the statement "fair and balanced" and again criticized U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan for saying the shelling appeared deliberate.

"During war, mistakes and tragedies happen,"

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N27419417.htm

So if the email is right, the ambassador is wrong.

 

[Office_Shredder]

So if the email is right, the ambassador is wrong.

How so? The striking of the UN observers would have been accidental

 

[Anttech]

How so? The striking of the UN observers would have been accidental

With laser guided missiles, after 10 radio calls to the Israel command post explaining where they are. The UN post has been there for years, it has the Blue UN Flag outside, it is well documented. If it was an accident then, I wonder how many undocumented accidence have been happening in Beriut!

 

[Anttech]

Deliberate killing of civilians, and UN Observers because of the Israeli perceived need to

Is a nice snippet of what I actually said:

Deliberate killing of civilians, and UN Observers because of the Israeli perceived need to and specifically in the context of trying to destroy Hezbollah is different than *wanting* to.

Ever heard of the term 'collateral damage' which the US likes to go on about as if it is acceptable, as long as its not US citizens.

 

[Yonoz]

So if the email is right, the ambassador is wrong.

What is he wrong about? Mistakes and tragedies don't happen during war?