Starting torque to move vehicle

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the necessary torque to initiate the movement of a vehicle from rest, considering factors such as friction, rolling resistance, and the specifics of different types of motors. Participants explore the implications of these factors in vehicle design, particularly in various operational environments.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • One participant notes the importance of accounting for the force required to overcome static friction when starting a vehicle, suggesting that it is often overlooked.
  • Another participant argues that practical vehicles typically have sufficient power to overcome starting resistance under normal conditions, indicating that static and kinetic friction are not significant counterforces.
  • A later reply emphasizes that while rolling resistance may be negligible in some cases, air drag and gradient force are still relevant factors opposing acceleration.
  • One participant highlights that a brief but significant torque is needed to transition from a stationary state to motion, particularly in specific scenarios like heavy trucks in cold environments.
  • There is a question regarding the impact of powered versus unpowered wheels in a bus, with a response indicating that the resistance from unpowered wheels is minimal.
  • Another participant discusses the torque characteristics of different motor types, noting that internal combustion engines require a clutch mechanism due to zero torque at rest, while electric motors can provide maximum torque at zero RPM.
  • It is mentioned that traction, rather than resistive friction, limits acceleration in scenarios like drag racing or quick starts at traffic lights.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the significance of friction forces in vehicle acceleration. While some assert that starting resistance is generally negligible, others highlight specific conditions where it becomes relevant. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the overall impact of these forces in various contexts.

Contextual Notes

Participants acknowledge that the discussion is context-dependent, with factors such as vehicle type, environmental conditions, and the specific design of the drive system influencing the relevance of friction and torque considerations.

Ole Forsell
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I am currently working on designing a drive system for a vehicle, and I am calulating the necessary torque to accelerate a vehicle. I am using the guidelines of this source:
http://www2.mae.ufl.edu/designlab/motors/EML2322L Drive Wheel Motor Torque Calculations.pdf

I still feel that there is something missing. Isn't there a required force to even start the vehicle to move from rest? Some kind of friction force which need to be taken into account?
 
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There is but it is seldom taken into account because there is no need . Any practical vehicle has more than enough power available to overcome it under normal operating conditions .

Starting resistance tends to be more of a problem in harsh environments and where a mechanism has been dormant for a long time .

It can be a particular problem in aerospace systems .
 
Nidum said:
There is but it is seldom taken into account because there is no need . Any practical vehicle has more than enough power available to overcome it under normal operating conditions .

Starting resistance tends to be more of a problem in harsh environments and where a mechanism has been dormant for a long time .

It can be a particular problem in aerospace systems .

So neither the static friction nor the kinetic friction have an impact that works as a counterveiling force? This means that only the rolling resistance is working against the acceleration on the wheels? In my case the rolling friction is very small and almost neglitiable. This means that only the air drag, and gradient force is working against the driving force. Is this right?
 
All shaft and bearing combinations and things like wheels on roads require a brief but relatively large torque to unstick them and take them from a motionless condition into a normal running condition .

Not a significant problem in normal vehicle design because available driving torques are almost always of overwhelming magnitude .

The only instance that I know of in ground vehicle design where any of this matters is in big trucks for use in oil exploration in the ice fields . Additional engine power has to be specified to ensure that they will start moving reliably when lubricant in bearings has almost set solid .
 
Last edited:
In the caes of a bus, does it matter that 2 wheels are applying force and the other 4 are providing resistance?
 
Clonemonkey said:
In the caes of a bus, does it matter that 2 wheels are applying force and the other 4 are providing resistance?
By design, the resistance of the unpowered wheels is minimal. Similar to the un-powered wheels in a trailer.
 
Ole Forsell said:
I am calulating the necessary torque to accelerate a vehicle.
The specifics of the motor are relevant here. An internal combustion engine has zero torque until it has started rotating and so a clutch mechanism is needed to allow slipping between engine and drive shaft. Assuming an electric motor of a steam locomotive then the maximum torque can well be at zero RPM. The relevance of friction to getting going is that the wheels must not slip. Loss of energy is seldom relevant at near-zero speeds.
Nidum said:
Not a significant problem in normal vehicle design because available driving torques are almost always of overwhelming magnitude .
Yes. The only exception is when a vehicle is 'bogged down' in mud, when the drive wheels slip before the rolling resistance is overcome.

The basic answer to the OP will depend on what acceleration you want. Drag racing and a quick getaway at traffic lights are both limited by traction and not by resistive friction.
 

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