Time of a falling object when the force of gravity isn't constant

AI Thread Summary
The discussion revolves around calculating the time it takes for an object to fall towards a planet when gravitational force is not constant. Initial calculations show the object's speed at the planet's surface is approximately 10,000 m/s, with gravity varying from 10 m/s² at the surface to 2.5 m/s² at a distance of 2*10^14 meters from the center. Participants emphasize the need for a function of time, suggesting differential equations and integration to derive the relationship between velocity and distance. There are multiple attempts to clarify the gravitational equations and integrate them to find time, but some participants express uncertainty about their calculus skills. The conversation highlights the complexity of integrating variable gravitational fields and the necessity of higher-level math for accurate solutions.
Shahar
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Homework Statement


Distance from planet = 10^14 meters, Radious of the planet = 10^7 meters, mass of the object = 100kg
g on the planet's surface = 10 m/s^2, g 10^14 meters away from the planets center = 2.5 m/s^2

Homework Equations


Fg=G*m*M/r^2

The Attempt at a Solution


I calculated the speed of the object at the surface of the planet ( 8931.5 m/s ) using Energy Conservation. I trןed to calculate the time using r(t), r(a) graphs.
 
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Shahar said:
g 10^14 meters away from the planets center = 2.5 m/s^2
Are you sure this is at 1014 meters instead of the surface? That would make the "planet" a supermassive black hole.

I calculated the speed of the object at the surface of the planet ( 8931.5 m/s ) using Energy Conservation
Can you calculate the speed at other distances, too?
How much time does the object need to get 1 meter (or in general, dx) closer, as function of distance?
 
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mfb said:
Are you sure this is at 1014 meters instead of the surface? That would make the "planet" a supermassive black hole.

It's 10 m/s^2 at the surface and 2.5 m/s^2 10^7 meters from the surface or 10^14 meters from the center.
I've calculated the planet's mass is 1.5*10^25 kg so its density is 35,000 km/m^3, Whitch is close to the density of the sun's core.
mfb said:
Can you calculate the speed at other distances, too?
How much time does the object need to get 1 meter (or in general, dx) closer, as function of distance?
And I used Energy Conservation to find the velocity equation.
V = √2 * √G*M/r2-G*M/r1

I can't find any function of time.
 
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Shahar said:
It's 10 m/s^2 at the surface and 2.5 m/s^2 10^7 meters from the surface or 10^14 meters from the center.
I've calculated the planet's mass is 1.5*10^25 kg so its density is 35,000 km/m^3, Whitch is close to the density of the sun's core.
And I used Energy Conservation to find the velocity equation.
V = √2 * √G*M/r2-G*M/r1

I can't find any function of time.
10^14 is a lot more than twice 10^7.
 
haruspex said:
10^14 is a lot more than twice 10^7.

Oh right its not 10^14 its 2*10^14.

But I checked my calculation and I used the
right numbers there. So it 2.5 m/s^2 10^7 meters away from the surface and 10 m/s^2 at the surface . (This is a quote from the book).

But the data isn't the main thing. I want to find the v(t) equation.
 
Shahar said:
Oh right its not 10^14 its 2*10^14.
Wait, what?
The density has another error of this type.

Shahar said:
And I used Energy Conservation to find the velocity equation.
V = √2 * √G*M/r2-G*M/r1
Okay. v is the derivative of position with respect to time: v=dx/dt. What about 1/v? Can you see how to use that, especially if you combine it with the hint of post #2?
 
mfb said:
Wait, what?
The density has another error of this type.Okay. v is the derivative of position with respect to time: v=dx/dt. What about 1/v? Can you see how to use that, especially if you combine it with the hint of post #2?
Sorry its 10^7 and 2*10^7. I'm really tired.

I think I get what you say.
 
Shahar said:
It's 10 m/s^2 at the surface and 2.5 m/s^2 10^7 meters from the surface or 10^14 meters from the center.
I've calculated the planet's mass is 1.5*10^25 kg so its density is 35,000 km/m^3, Whitch is close to the density of the sun's core.

And I used Energy Conservation to find the velocity equation.
V = √2 * √G*M/r2-G*M/r1

I can't find any function of time.
Uhh, I'm not sure what kind of density 35,000 km/m3 is, but I'm pretty sure it's not the density at the sun's core. :rolleyes:

That number is about 150 g / cm3, or say 150,000 kg/m3.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun

Pluto orbits at an average distance of 5.85×1012 m from the sun, which is still far short of 1014 m. :oops:
 
SteamKing said:
Uhh, I'm not sure what kind of density 35,000 km/m3 is, but I'm pretty sure it's not the density at the sun's core. :rolleyes:

That number is about 150 g / cm3, or say 150,000 kg/m3.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun

Pluto orbits at an average distance of 5.85×1012 m from the sun, which is still far short of 1014 m. :oops:

Yes, I know calculate all the data again with the correct numbers.
 
  • #10
OK, I calculated the planet's mass and the
object's velocity again. I got 1.5*10^25 kg for the planet's mass. And the velocity of the object is 10,000 m/s at the surface. I know 1414<t<2828 seconds.
I can't think of any equation that has time in it.
I did a(r) function and I found that the average acceleration is 5 m/s^2.
I used v(t) function for constant acceleration and I got 2,000 seconds. I'm not sure about that but I don't know anything about the time compared to something else.
 
  • #11
Shahar said:
OK, I calculated the planet's mass and the
object's velocity again. I got 1.5*10^25 kg for the planet's mass. And the velocity of the object is 10,000 m/s at the surface. I know 1414<t<2828 seconds.
I can't think of any equation that has time in it.
I did a(r) function and I found that the average acceleration is 5 m/s^2.
I used v(t) function for constant acceleration and I got 2,000 seconds. I'm not sure about that but I don't know anything about the time compared to something else.
To get the time, you will need to go back to the differential equation of motion and solve it.
 
  • #12
mfb said:
What about 1/v?

I'm not sure but:
t=1/X'(v)
So I have to find the derivative of x(v).

EDIT : I tried that and it failed.
 
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  • #13
I presume you know that for gravity, F= -\frac{GmM}{r^2}. Since F= ma, a= -\frac{GM}{r^2}. Integrate to get the speed at time t and integrate again to get the position.
 
  • #14
HallsofIvy said:
I presume you know that for gravity, F= -\frac{GmM}{r^2}. Since F= ma, a= -\frac{GM}{r^2}. Integrate to get the speed at time t and integrate again to get the position.

Well, I know Newton law of gravtion but I don't know to integrate.
I tried every graph possible to get the v(t) but I can't find it.
I know the concept and basics of intgral calculus, but how I can get from the a(x) to the v(x)? In the last few hours I tried to do this with no secsuss.
I found v(x) and x(v).
 
  • #15
Have you learned about conservation of energy yet in your course?

Chet
 
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  • #16
Chestermiller said:
Have you learned about conservation of energy yet in your course?

Chet

Yes, and its just high school physics class.
 
  • #17
Shahar said:
Yes, and its just high school physics class.
Do you know the equation for the potential energy of an object in a variable gravitational field (i.e., a gravitational field that varies with distance from a specified mass)?

Chet
 
  • #18
Chestermiller said:
Do you know the equation for the potential energy of an object in a variable gravitational field (i.e., a gravitational field that varies with distance from a specified mass)?

Chet

Yes .
Pe=-G*M*m/r
 
  • #19
Shahar said:
Yes .
Pe=-G*M*m/r
Excellent, except for a missing minus sign. So the sum of the potential energy and the kinetic energy of the falling body doesn't change as it falls. Let v = the velocity of the body at time t, and let r be the distance from the center of the planet at time t. What is the sum of the potential energy and the kinetic energy at time t? What is the sum at time zero? What is the velocity as a function of distance from the center?

Chet
 
  • #20
Didn't we have that formula in post #3 already?
 
  • #21
mfb said:
Didn't we have that formula in post #3 already?
Yes , V(x).
Chestermiller said:
What is the sum of the potential energy and the kinetic energy at time t?

Chet
The sum doesn't change due to Energy conversation. And in t=0 we only have potential energy.
I can't find a function that contains time.
Its constantly changing so I can't simply multiply it with other variables, can't I?
I tried to use averages and triangle area but it didn't work.
 
  • #22
You'll need a differential equation. See my previous posts. Solving this differential equation is just an integral.
 
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  • #23
mfb said:
You'll need a differential equation. See my previous posts. Solving this differential equation is just an integral.

I haven't learned yet how to solve a differential equation. I'm quite new to calculus.
But generally I need to take the derivative with respect to x . And this is the change in time,right ?
 
  • #24
Change in time as function of distance is a good approach.
 
  • #25
Are trying to find the velocity when the body hits or the amount of time it takes to fall?

Chet
 
  • #26
Chestermiller said:
Are trying to find the velocity when the body hits or the amount of time it takes to fall?

Chet

The time ,I already found the velocity.
 
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  • #27
mfb said:
Didn't we have that formula in post #3 already?
Oops. Missed that. Got to be more careful.
Shahar said:
The time ,I already found the velocity.
In post number 6, mfb gave you the trick. You know that v(r) = -dr/dt, so dt/dr = -1/v(r). So you have an equation for the derivative of t with respect to r in terms of r. (That's analogous to having dy/dx = f(x)). If you've had integration in your calculus course, then you should work on figuring out how to do this integration to get t. You also know that an integral can be represented graphically as the area under a curve, so if you plot dt/dr vs r, you can also get the integral by "counting boxes" on the graph.

Chet
 
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  • #28
Shahar said:
V = √2 * √G*M/r2-G*M/r1
I can't find any function of time.
As mentioned, you'll need higher level math to determine when the objects collide. Alternate methods for determining velocity versus position:

$$a = \frac{d^{2}r}{dt^{2}}=-\frac{2GM}{r^{2}}$$
Method 1, multiply both sides by v = dr/dt:
$$\frac{d^{2}r}{dt^{2}}\frac{dr}{dt}=-\frac{2GM}{r^{2}}\frac{dr}{dt}$$
$$\frac{dv}{dt} \ v =-\frac{2GM}{r^{2}}\frac{dr}{dt}$$
integrate both sides:
$$\frac{1}{2}v^2 = \frac{GM}{r}-\frac{GM}{r_0}$$
Method 2, use chain rule (v as a function of r, r as a function of t, a = v'(r) r'(t))
$$\frac{dv}{dr}\frac{dr}{dt} = -\frac{2GM}{r^{2}}$$
$$dv \ v = -\frac{2GM}{r^{2}}{dr}$$
integrate both sides:
$$\frac{1}{2}v^2 = \frac{GM}{r}-\frac{GM}{r_0}$$
using - G M / r0 as the constant of integration since v = 0 when r = r0
$$v = dr/dt = -\sqrt{\frac{2 \ G \ M}{r} - \frac{2 \ G \ M}{r_0}} = -\sqrt{\frac{2 \ G \ M \ (r_0 \ - \ r)}{r_0 \ r}} = -\sqrt{\frac{2 \ G \ M}{r_0}}\sqrt{\frac{r_0 \ - \ r}{r}}$$
This basically matches the answer shown in post #3. To get time you'd have to integrate:
$$-\sqrt{\frac{r_0}{2 \ G \ M}}\sqrt{\frac{r}{r_0 \ - \ r}} \ dr = dt$$
The left side is complicated:

http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=integral+-+sqrt(r0+/+(2+G+M))+sqrt(r+/+(r0-r))+dr
 
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  • #29
rcgldr said:
As mentioned, you'll need higher level math.

Alternate approach for v(r):

v = dr/dt
a = dv/dt = (dv/dt) (dr/dr) = (dr/dt) (dv/dr) = - G M / r^2

v dv = - G M dr / r^2
1/2 v^2 = G M / r - G M / r0 (using GM / r0 as the constant of integration)
v = dr/dt = -sqrt ((2 G M / r) - (2 G M / r0))

To get time you'd have to integrate:

- dr / sqrt ((2 G M / r) - (2 G M / r0)) = dt

- sqrt(r r0) dr / sqrt(2 G M (r0 - r)) = dt

- sqrt(r0 / (2 G M)) sqrt(r / (r0-r)) dr = dt
rcgldr said:
The answer in the site isn't very helpful.
 
  • #30
rcgldr said:
As mentioned, you'll need higher level math.

Alternate approach for v(r):

v = dr/dt
a = dv/dt = (dv/dt) (dr/dr) = (dr/dt) (dv/dr)
Really ?

(dv/dt) (dr/dr) = (dr/dt) (dv/dr) ?

The Calculus gods have just gone nuts !

Added in Edit: The RED emphasis above.
 
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  • #31
SammyS said:
Really ?

(dv/dt) (dr/dr) = (dr/dt) (dv/dr) ?

The Calculus gods have just gone nuts !

The link. Not this site.Sorry my english isn't that good.
 
  • #32
Shahar said:
The link. Not this site.Sorry my english isn't that good.
@Shahar,
I was replying to Post # 28 by rcgldr .
 
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  • #33
Shahar said:
The answer in the site isn't very helpful.
You can substitute u = sqrt(r / (r0-r))
 
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  • #34
I prefer the substitution r = r0sin2θ

Chet
 
  • #35
rcgldr said:
a = dv/dt = (dv/dt) (dr/dr) = (dr/dt) (dv/dr) = v dv/dr
SammyS said:
Really ?
Chain rule, wiki link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chain_rule

I fixed what I now call method 1 and method 2 in my previous post.
 
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  • #36
rcgldr said:
rcgldr said:
a = dv/dt = (dv/dt) (dr/dr) = (dr/dt) (dv/dr)

Chain rule, wiki link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chain_rule

This is used when acceleration is a function of distance (instead of time), acceleration = a(r) = - G M / r^2.
I'm familiar with the chain rule.

It's the abuse of the notation in that set of steps that I was objecting to, in particular the (dv/dt)(dr/dr) in
dv/dt = (dv/dt) (dr/dr) = (dr/dt) (dv/dr) .​

dv/dt is not a fraction. It represents a derivative in Leibniz's notation . It is very handy for implementing the chain rule.

You don't simply take ##\displaystyle\ \frac{dv}{dt}\,,\ ## then multiply numerator & denominator by ##\ dr\ ## like so, ##\displaystyle\ \frac{dv}{dt}\frac{dr}{dr}\ ## and then swap locations of dr & dt or dv to get ##\displaystyle\ \frac{dv}{dr}\cdot\frac{dr}{dt}\ ##.

If v is a function of r, and in turn, if r can be expressed as a function of t, then ##\displaystyle\ \frac{dv}{dt}=v'(r)\cdot r'(t)=\frac{dv}{dr}\cdot\frac{dr}{dt}\ ##.
 
  • #37
rcgldr said:
Maybe if I had paid attention to the thread title ... (brain fade on my part). In that case, can you delete all of the posts with the solutions? Or if you give me an OK, I can go back and empty out all my previous posts, leaving a comment about waiting for feedback. Perhaps the OP hasn't visited this thread since those posts were added.
Good suggestion. I will go back and delete and edit where appropriate. In the Country where the OP lives, it is a little before sunrise now, so maybe he hasn't seen any of the posts yet.

Chet
 
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  • #38
Update :I am tring to solve this using basoc calculus. So I'm tring to find the a(t) using a(x). Because v'(t)=a(t). I'm a bit stuck but I think I'm able to solve it.
 
  • #39
Converting a(x) to a(t) is difficult, and requires finding the time (and everything else) first. The correct approach is in the thread now, you just have to integrate it. If you don't know how to calculate integrals then I don't see a way to solve the problem.
 
  • #40
mfb said:
Converting a(x) to a(t) is difficult, and requires finding the time (and everything else) first. The correct approach is in the thread now, you just have to integrate it. If you don't know how to calculate integrals then I don't see a way to solve the problem.

II integrated a(x) and it gave me , well...IIts not the average velocity.
mfb said:
Converting a(x) to a(t) is diffi
mfb said:
Converting a(x) to a(t) is difficult, and requires finding the time (and everything else) first. The correct approach is in the thread now, you just have to integrate it. If you don't know how to calculate integrals then I don't see a way to solve the problem.

I integrated a(x) and v(x). The big problem is that I don't really understand differentials.
 
  • #41
Shahar said:
II integrated a(x) and it gave me , well...IIts not the average velocity.
I integrated a(x) and v(x). The big problem is that I don't really understand differentials.
If you don't understand differentials, how can you say that you have done an integration? Have you learned how to do integration in your courses yet? Have you learned about doing integrations by using algebraic or trigonometric substitution?

Chet
 
  • #42
Chestermiller said:
If you don't understand differentials, how can you say that you have done an integration? Have you learned how to do integration in your courses yet? Have you learned about doing integrations by using algebraic or trigonometric substitution?

Chet

Because I can't solve this problem without knowing how to integrate I learned integrations using algebraic substitution.
 
  • #43
What about doing it graphically? Is that allowed?

Chet
 
  • #44
Don't integrate v(x), integrate 1/v(x).
 
  • #45
Chestermiller said:
What about doing it graphically? Is that allowed?

Chet

My question is not homework. It's too advance to be 10th grade homework. In the original question they asked us to find a time range for the falling object .(1414<t<2828 seconds) .
I just wanted to find the precise time it takes to an object moving with changing gravitational acceloration to get from A to B.

mfb said:
Don't integrate v(x), integrate 1/v(x).

I tried that,
 
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  • #46
This problem starts off with an equation for acceleration as a function of position. The sequence here is to generate an equation for velocity as a function of position, then time as a function of position, then invert this to an equation for position as a function of time, take the derivative to get velocity as a function of time, and another derivative to get acceleration as a function of time. However at some point in this process, you may not be able to continue, either due to an equation that can't be integrated, or an equation for time as a function of position that can't be inverted to an equation for position as a function of time.

If you wan't to get an idea of how this process works, try a simpler case like a(x) = -x (acceleration as a function of position), with an initial position of 0 and initial velocity of 1.
 
  • #47
rcgldr said:
This problem starts off with an equation for acceleration as a function of position. The sequence here is to generate an equation for velocity as a function of position, then time as a function of position, then invert this to an equation for position as a function of time, take the derivative to get velocity as a function of time, and another derivative to get acceleration as a function of time. However at some point in this process, you may not be able to continue, either due to an equation that can't be integrated, or an equation for time as a function of position that can't be inverted to an equation for position as a function of time.

If you wan't to get an idea of how this process works, try a simpler case like a(x) = -x (acceleration as a function of position), with an initial position of 0 and initial velocity of 1.

This is what I'm doing right now.
It will take some time.
 
  • #48
Shahar said:
My question is not homework. I just wanted to find the precise time it takes to an object moving with changing gravitational acceloration to get from A to B.
Well you already have the solution for time versus position in post #28 (the link to the math site), but in the form of a very complicated equation resulting from integration of velocity versus position. update - the rest of this post about substitutions was moved to post #50 to combine the important equations into a single post.
 
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  • #49
rcgldr said:
This problem starts off with an equation for acceleration as a function of position. The sequence here is to generate an equation for velocity as a function of position, then time as a function of position, then invert this to an equation for position as a function of time, take the derivative to get velocity as a function of time, and another derivative to get acceleration as a function of time. However at some point in this process, you may not be able to continue, either due to an equation that can't be integrated, or an equation for time as a function of position that can't be inverted to an equation for position as a function of time.

If you wan't to get an idea of how this process works, try a simpler case like a(x) = -x (acceleration as a function of position), with an initial position of 0 and initial velocity of 1.
Yeah, its impossible to get v(t). I'm now just searching for x(t).
I know there are a lot of solutions here but I don't really understand them. I think I have to get to them myself to fully understand this.
 
  • #50
Shahar said:
I'm now just searching for x(t). I know there are a lot of solutions here but I don't really understand them. I think I have to get to them myself to fully understand this.
You need to get t(r) first, by integrating the equation you got in post #3, which I redid in post #28.
The left term, - sqrt(r0 / (2 G M)) is a constant, so the issue here is integrating the right term, sqrt(r / (r0 - r)) dr .
r0 is the initial position, in this case 10^14 meters.

$$-\sqrt{\frac{r_0}{2 \ G \ M}}\sqrt{\frac{r}{r_0 \ - \ r}} \ dr = dt$$
The substitutions suggested in posts #33 and #34 will result in a much simpler equation, but you'll have to convert position into the substituted values to order to calculate the time.

post #33 substitution (r0 is a constant):
$$ u = \sqrt{\frac{r}{r_0 \ - \ r}} $$
$$r = r_0 - \frac{r_0}{1 + u^2} $$
post #34 substitution (this one is simpler):
$$ r = r_0 \ sin^2(θ) $$
$$θ = {sin^{-1}\left ( \sqrt{\frac{r}{r_0}} \right )} $$
You need to determine what dr (derivative of r) is when using either substitution.

Use the post #34 substitution which is simpler than the post #33 substitution. The resulting integrals with either substitution are complicated enough that you'll probably want to look up the solution using a table of integrals (old timers may remember the CRC books with tables of integrals) or a website like WolframAlpha to solve, but those resulting integrals will be much simpler than the one from post #28.
 
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