YOU: Fix the US Energy Crisis

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The discussion centers on developing a comprehensive plan to address the US energy crisis, emphasizing the need to define specific problems such as pollution from coal, rising demand outpacing supply, foreign oil dependence, and high costs. A proposed solution involves a 30-year, multi-phase approach that includes constructing modern nuclear power plants, heavily funding alternative energy research, and implementing immediate regulations to reduce pollution. The plan outlines a significant investment, potentially $3 trillion over 30 years, but promises long-term benefits like reduced pollution, increased energy capacity, and lower costs. Participants also highlight the importance of political will and public awareness in driving these changes. Ultimately, the conversation underscores the urgency of addressing energy issues through innovative and practical solutions.
  • #251
I have a couple of questions - mostly I'm trying to understand how this (pumping the "non food" portion of the plants underground) compares to what happens now.

First, how much of the carbon in a plant comes from the air, and how much comes from the soil? Is it really all from the air?

If/when a plant stalk & roots are turned under, does the carbon return to the air? How exactly does this occur? What's the time scale? I know that for some crops, the farmers burn the fields after harvest (I have seen this in sugarcane fields). In that case I guess the carbon goes right back to the air. But I really don't know about just turning the stalks into the fields.

I think a lot of the "non food" part of the plants is now used to feed livestock (Im pretty sure that's where the corn cobs go now). What happens to that carbon now? For that matter, what happens to the carbon in the 1/3 you figure we eat?

I doubt that it would be possible to produce the yield we see for a crop like corn on every acre of arable land. What's the current production compared to the value you are assuming?

I don't believe that corn stalks are 50% (by weight) carbon. I think they are mostly water (because, when you dry them out they are nearly weightless).

Please don't take these questions as an attack on your idea. I like the general idea (which really boils down to using solar energy to close the carbon cycle). Burning coal releases the energy in the carbon - hydrogen - oxygen bonds, while growing plants use the incoming solar energy to re-create those bonds. What concerns me is whether this can really work - can we grow new plants faster than we burn the plants that grew millions of years ago?
 
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  • #252
gmax137 said:
I have a couple of questions - mostly I'm trying to understand how this (pumping the "non food" portion of the plants underground) compares to what happens now.

First, how much of the carbon in a plant comes from the air, and how much comes from the soil? Is it really all from the air?
I'm not a biologist, but my guess is yes.
If/when a plant stalk & roots are turned under, does the carbon return to the air? How exactly does this occur? What's the time scale? I know that for some crops, the farmers burn the fields after harvest (I have seen this in sugarcane fields). In that case I guess the carbon goes right back to the air. But I really don't know about just turning the stalks into the fields.
My understanding is that carbon will stay in the plant until a critical temperature and conditions are reached.
http://www.springerlink.com/content/t7381j025827h0n8/" on production of CH4 and CO2 from Peat in a Natural and Flooded Boreal Forest Wetland
CH4 and CO2 production rates approximately tripled for every 10 °C temperature increase and may have been linked to to the metabolic rate of the methanogens or the fermentors independent of the substrate quality.

I've not found any numbers for corn stalk carbon release in Kansas though.

I think a lot of the "non food" part of the plants is now used to feed livestock (Im pretty sure that's where the corn cobs go now). What happens to that carbon now? For that matter, what happens to the carbon in the 1/3 you figure we eat?
I would imagine it goes to the sewage treatment plant. Are you suggesting we flush our toilets into the sequestration caverns? Hmmm... Good Idea. That would cut the time down by a third.
I doubt that it would be possible to produce the yield we see for a crop like corn on every acre of arable land. What's the current production compared to the value you are assuming?
You know, the first time I calculated this, I spent about 15 minutes finding the numbers. I hope you don't think I'm an expert.
But you can expand on my idea on an international level by determining the caloric intake and food composition of the various parts of the world.
I don't believe that corn stalks are 50% (by weight) carbon. I think they are mostly water (because, when you dry them out they are nearly weightless).
You caught me there. And if you look closely, you will also see that my calculations are based on all of the CO2 in the atmosphere. Not just the 30-40% excess. But the numbers are a bit confusing. Some sources say that much of the excess carbon is being absorbed by our oceans. So it's really difficult to determine how much excess carbon we need to get rid of.
Please don't take these questions as an attack on your idea. I like the general idea (which really boils down to using solar energy to close the carbon cycle). Burning coal releases the energy in the carbon - hydrogen - oxygen bonds, while growing plants use the incoming solar energy to re-create those bonds. What concerns me is whether this can really work - can we grow new plants faster than we burn the plants that grew millions of years ago?

That's actually a very good question. The algae needs sunlight to absorb the carbon. We may want to build any new coal burning plants to the southwest. I've not done the calculations on how large an algae farm would be required to clean up a large coal burning plant.

I believe MIT is studying the process though.
 
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  • #253
I didn't review to see if this had been mentioned, but fyi

...The idea behind the venture is to create plankton "blooms," or large-scale growth, by seeding the ocean with iron, which stimulates plankton growth. As the plankton grows, it consumes carbon dioxide, a greenhouse gas, and removes it from the atmosphere.

Planktos is not the first to come up with the idea of capturing or sequestering carbon through plankton blooms. But the Foster City, Calif.-based company appears to be the first trying to commercialize ongoing research on the topic.

During the trip, the crew of about 16 will seed thousands of miles of the Pacific Ocean with iron. After the growth phase, a percentage of that plankton will die and sink. Once the plankton are below 500 meters, they sequester the consumed carbon for centuries, said David Kubiak, director of communications for Planktos...
http://news.cnet.com/Seeding-the-ocean-to-capture-carbon/2100-11395_3-6182861.html

I read that either this or another group was not able to keep their bloom alive. I think another group was working the same idea with algae.
 
  • #254
Could coffee be the alternative fuel of the future?
http://www.sciam.com/blog/60-second-science/post.cfm?id=could-coffee-be-the-alternative-fue-2008-12-10
Researchers from the University of Nevada, Reno, have discovered that coffee can be turned into an alternative fuel other than caffeine: biodiesel. And you can have your coffee and drink it too. No need to use the fresh stuff, old grounds are more than up to the task, according to material scientist Mano Misra and his colleagues.

Even after being subjected to the rigors of brewing, roughly 15 percent of the weight of dried coffee grounds is oil, which, much like palm and soybean oil, can be converted into biodiesel. The coffee has the added benefit of not being a food source, like palm oil and soybeans.

Nevertheless, more than 16 billion pounds of coffee are produced globally every year, according to the U.S. Department of Agriculture. Misra estimates that the grounds from that haul could be used to make as much as 340 million gallons of biodiesel. For their part, the researchers turned grounds donated by Starbucks into biodiesel that had the added advantage of smelling like a fresh cup o' Joe.
. . . .
It should be done after the coffee is made. Coffee grounds to fuel is a great idea. We compost ours.

Extracting the oil, and then converting grounds to fuel would be even better. A group at Texas A&M have invented a process that apparently converts biomass to fuel.

See post #246
 
  • #256
I doubt biomass has the capability of solving our energy problems. We may be able to produce a considerable amount of power from it but there just isn't enough energy there for it to be a significant source. Compared to that of a modern solar panel or solar thermal plant, how efficient is a plant leaf or algae anyway? I think I remember seeing numbers for a corn stalk leaf only being able to convert less than 1% of sunlight into usable chemical energy. Compare that to the ~15% of your modern solar panel and its pretty easy to see what's better.

I see that energy storage is starting to become more popular and I think is key to developing a stable power infrastructure based on micro-generation. With out it, most sources of alternative energy like wind, solar, and tidal can never reach their full potential.

http://www.beaconpower.com/products/EnergyStorageSystems/index.htm
 
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  • #257
Topher925 said:
I doubt biomass has the capability of solving our energy problems. We may be able to produce a considerable amount of power from it but there just isn't enough energy there for it to be a significant source. Compared to that of a modern solar panel or solar thermal plant, how efficient is a plant leaf or algae anyway? I think I remember seeing numbers for a corn stalk leaf only being able to convert less than 1% of sunlight into usable chemical energy. Compare that to the ~15% of your modern solar panel and its pretty easy to see what's better.

Find me a solar panel which can cover 1 acre of land for less than fifteen times the cost of plants.

My firm belief is that biomass (either first or second generation) has an important role in our future energy supplies.
 
  • #258
brewnog said:
Find me a solar panel which can cover 1 acre of land for less than fifteen times the cost of plants.

My firm belief is that biomass (either first or second generation) has an important role in our future energy supplies.

Indeed! And the lifetime cost ratio is probably much greater than 15:1. There is also the issue that, at least for the foreseeable future, we will not be flying solar powered airplanes, or running solar powered ships, tractor trailers, busses, or heavy trains.
 
  • #261
Its not about cost for every acre you cover, its cost per kw generated. I came across an article not to long ago that compared the cradle to grave costs of solar cells, solar thermal, and a couple biofuel energy sources. I'll try and find it again.
 
  • #262
Topher925 said:
Its not about cost for every acre you cover, its cost per kw generated. I came across an article not to long ago that compared the cradle to grave costs of solar cells, solar thermal, and a couple biofuel energy sources. I'll try and find it again.

Note that most people now understand that corn-ethanol is a loser, so comparisons to that option would be useless.
 
  • #263
NRG teams with ESolar for 500 mw of solar thermal

NRG Energy signed a deal with ESolar to build 500 mw of solar thermal at sites in California and the Southwest . .
http://www.reuters.com/article/rbssTechMediaTelecomNews/idUSN2334679020090223
LOS ANGELES, Feb 23 (Reuters) - NRG Energy (NRG.N) stepped in the solar power arena for the first time with an agreement with solar developer eSolar to create up to 500 megawatts of solar thermal plants in the U.S. Southwest, the two companies announced on Monday.

Independent power producer NRG will invest $10 million in the venture, which is designed to develop a series of solar thermal power plants with Pasadena, California-based eSolar.

An eSolar spokeswoman said, "This is the first fully funded utility scale renewable energy deal since global markets went south last year."

NRG said it will gain equity and associated development rights for three projects, and a portfolio of power purchase agreements to develop, build, own and operate up to 11 eSolar solar plants. The first plant is due to come on-line in 2011.

Princeton, New Jersey-based NRG has 48 power plants generating 24,000 megawatts of electricity, enough to serve 20,000 households.

. . . .

NRG's eSolar Investment Has Tax, Green Benefits
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123543749926554727.html
NRG Energy Inc. will invest $10 million in closely held eSolar Inc., a company that designs modular power plants using solar-tower technology.

The deal stands to give eSolar the resources it needs to expand, while allowing NRG to accelerate the greening of its own energy portfolio.

More arrangements like the one between NRG and eSolar are expected, as cash-strapped renewable-energy companies join with larger, profitable energy companies looking for tax shelters to offset profits and to increase the renewable component of their energy businesses. Such "tax-equity investors" have been harder for renewable-energy companies to find since the stock market's collapse, which left fewer companies worried about paying income taxes.

Under the arrangement, NRG, a Princeton, N.J., company with conventional fossil-fuel and nuclear power plants generating 24,000 megawatts of electricity, is garnering the right to invest potentially hundreds of millions of dollars in coming years to build, own and operate solar plants using eSolar's technology.

The agreement covers development of as much as 500 megawatts of solar-power plants, including a 240-megawatt development that eSolar intends to build for Edison International's Southern California Edison unit.
. . . .

http://media.corporate-ir.net/media_files/irol/12/121544/0223eSolarFinal.pdf

http://www.nrgenergy.com/
 
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  • #264
Ug, that's a fairly poor Reuters article. 'Tower of mirrors'? Nothing on cost, nothing on transmission issues, though that may simply not be available yet.
 
  • #265
Press releases often do not go into technical details. In the electrical industry, transmission is a major issue. Ostensibly, such plants can be build relatively close to existing transmission lines.
 
  • #266
Astronuc said:
Press releases often do not go into technical details. In the electrical industry, transmission is a major issue. Ostensibly, such plants can be build relatively close to existing transmission lines.
True, but I didn't consider general cost of plant, or whether additional line would be needed a technical detail; they're fundamental. In the renewable electrical industry, transmission is a huge issue because solar and wind are specifically often not close to transmission lines, they're in the boonies - hence the big fuss about the 120mi http://www.sdge.com/sunrisepowerlink/SPL_NL1.pdf" from the states of transmission line regulation and right of way.
 
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  • #267
Astronuc said:
FYI -

The National Academies Summit on America's Energy Future:
Summary of a Meeting

http://books.nap.edu/catalog.php?record_id=12450 (Free downloadable pdf available)

http://sites.nationalacademies.org/energy/index.htm

You can alsohttp://books.nap.edu/catalog.php?record_id=12450#toc".


Achieving an energy regime that meets human demands while protecting the global environment will require changing the relationship between energy use and economic activity. As several speakers at the summit pointed out, these two measures are correlated (http://books.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=12450&page=86#p200160219960086001"). However, the correlation is not invariant.

From 1977 to 1985, the U.S. economy grew 27 percent while the nation’s use of oil fell 17 percent. Oil imports fell by half, and imports from the Persian Gulf dropped by 87 percent. “It broke OPEC’s pricing power for a decade, because we customers, especially in America, … found that we could save oil faster than OPEC could conveniently sell less oil,” said Amory Lovins.

As Lovins pointed out, economic theorists have assumed that energy intensity in the world will fall by about 1 percent a year because of increasing efficiency. “If we could make that about 2 percent a year, it would stabilize carbon emissions with economic projections. If we could make that more like 3 percent per year, carbon emissions would fall and stabilize the climate fairly quickly.”

from commentary regarding Figure 11.1
To solve the energy problem, the United States must increase its energy efficiency four- to fivefold, while the developing world grows in such a way that its energy intensity does not increase dramatically, said Steven Chu (Figure 11.2). “The real question is whether the developing countries will follow in the footsteps of the United States, Australia, and Canada,” said Chu. Or will they “leapfrog past the mistakes of the developed world”? The developed world has an obligation to lead the way and to help other nations follow, Chu said. “It is not our birthright to say that we should enjoy a high standard of living and the developing countries should not.”

Doesn't sound too difficult.
 
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  • #268
Former EPA Chief Whitman on Nuclear Power, Energy Jobs, and the New EPA
http://blogs.wsj.com/environmentalcapital/2009/02/24/former-epa-chief-whitman-on-nuclear-power-energy-jobs-and-the-new-epa/

WSJ: Nuclear power seems to be gathering momentum—now Italy’s trying to jump on board. Does that change the debate here?

WHITMAN: The nuclear revival is happening all across Europe. A lot of the countries who’ve signed onto Kyoto, find they can’t meet their emissions budgets. The biggest difference is that for the first time, environmentalists are willing to engage. Climate change is such an important deal, we’ve gotten boxed in—what form of base power can meet our needs?
If electricity demand is going to grow 20% by 2030, and you’re not going to get there with energy efficiency and renewables alone, if you care about climate change, you have to look at nuclear power as part of the solution.

WSJ: But one of the big question marks is the ability of the nuclear industry to really gear up, with concerns over supplies of key components and even technicians.

WHITMAN: There probably won’t be too many problems from a personnel point of view, because there is more and more technical training going on, and there’s always the U.S. Navy.

In terms of components, there are more issues, like forging the reactor core vessel. Eventually, that is going to be a problem. But that is something that we could do in the U.S., and it would bring back manufacturing jobs.

WSJ: Green jobs are all the rage, especially after the stimulus bill. In the past, CASE has touted the job-creation potential of the nuclear industry, but how realistic is that given the sector’s upstream challenges?

WHITMAN: Look, peak employment during the construction of a nuclear reactor can reach 4,000 jobs. Once built, you’re looking at 400-700 full-time jobs. Now, if all the 26 reactors in the pipeline were built in the US, you’d be talking about 12,000 to 21,000 jobs.
Things are speeding up. The Nuclear Regulatory Commission has streamlined the permitting process, so the timeline [for a new nuclear plant] is more like 8-10 years, rather than 15 years as in the past. And that’s only going to get faster—we’re talking about 4 technologies for new reactors instead of the 95 or so for the current 104 reactors.
And that will help the economics—you’ll finally see economies of scale. That will be better on the jobs side, too, because people can move around from one reactor to another. In the past, they always had to retrain. Standardization will bring a lot of benefits.

WSJ: But there’s still the question of nuclear-waste storage, and the decades-long debate over Yucca Mountain.

WHITMAN: The storage question is not a nuclear science issue, it’s a political science issue. It’s all [Senate majority leader] Harry Reid. The spent fuel rods are safely stored for now.
Now, France and Japan are reprocessing their spent fuel, bringing that waste from 95% useable fuel down to about 3%. If we get that going, then that will reduce the amount of waste to be stored, and Yucca will be in fine shape.

. . . .
 
  • #269
Topher925 said:
Its not about cost for every acre you cover, its cost per kw generated. I came across an article not to long ago that compared the cradle to grave costs of solar cells, solar thermal, and a couple biofuel energy sources. I'll try and find it again.

Ever find that article, Topher?
 
  • #270
Astronuc said:
Former EPA Chief Whitman on Nuclear Power, Energy Jobs, and the New EPA
http://blogs.wsj.com/environmentalcapital/2009/02/24/former-epa-chief-whitman-on-nuclear-power-energy-jobs-and-the-new-epa/
Note that the President omitted all reference to nuclear power in yesterday's speech, despite some lengthy energy passages and 15 references to 'energy', with the exception of a single reference to 'terrorism and nuclear proliferation'. That's a disappointing lack of balance, and I'm afraid represents a denial of the facts on the ground that this and other threads have explored in seeking a secure energy future.
 
  • #271
WHITMAN: Look, peak employment during the construction of a nuclear reactor can reach 4,000 jobs. Once built, you’re looking at 400-700 full-time jobs. Now, if all the 26 reactors in the pipeline were built in the US, you’d be talking about 12,000 to 21,000 jobs.
The jobs argument strikes me as a poor one. In down economies its increasingly thrown around to justify most anything, almost replacing 'it will help the children' for top rationalization. I expect a 1 GW power source of any type is going create some thousands of jobs. To the extent nuclear requires more people than other sources it reflects the cost premium inherent in nuclear. That is, the jobs might be for say 20 security people that don't produce anything, and throw in some jobs created for lawyers and professional anti-nuclear activists. I think the better argument is that to the extent nuclear creates jobs they are more highly skilled, good jobs.
 
  • #272
mheslep said:
Ug, that's a fairly poor Reuters article. 'Tower of mirrors'? Nothing on cost, nothing on transmission issues, though that may simply not be available yet.
A quick look at the company website shows that there are no details because there are no details.

Utility companies need to spend money on such things (not sure if this one was spending required money or just a way to cash in on a tax incentive) and investing in start-ups with nonexistent products is an easy way to accomplish that.

The idea of solar-thermodynamic plants is not new and does hold some promise, but it isn't past the prototype stage, so advertising that they will have a large, functioning plant in 2 years is just silly.
 
  • #273
mheslep said:
Note that the President omitted all reference to nuclear power in yesterday's speech, despite some lengthy energy passages and 15 references to 'energy', with the exception of a single reference to 'terrorism and nuclear proliferation'. That's a disappointing lack of balance, and I'm afraid represents a denial of the facts on the ground that this and other threads have explored in seeking a secure energy future.
Some people knew that his tiptoing around the nuclear issue during the campaign was just for show. There won't be any progress on nuclear power regulations unless it is forced on him and since we have a Democrat Congress, that's not going to happen. I am so unsurprised, I wouldn't consider "dissapointment" a relevant reaction.

We're not going to be making any relevant progress on this issue any time soon.
 
  • #274
mheslep said:
The jobs argument strikes me as a poor one. In down economies its increasingly thrown around to justify most anything, almost replacing 'it will help the children' for top rationalization. I expect a 1 GW power source of any type is going create some thousands of jobs. To the extent nuclear requires more people than other sources it reflects the cost premium inherent in nuclear. That is, the jobs might be for say 20 security people that don't produce anything, and throw in some jobs created for lawyers and professional anti-nuclear activists. I think the better argument is that to the extent nuclear creates jobs they are more highly skilled, good jobs.
Agreed. When the government spends money on just about anything, it creates jobs, at least temporarily. There are plenty of good/relevant reasons to support nuclear power, but that really isn't one of them.
 
  • #275
russ_watters said:
Some people knew that his tiptoing around the nuclear issue during the campaign was just for show. There won't be any progress on nuclear power regulations unless it is forced on him and since we have a Democrat Congress, that's not going to happen. I am so unsurprised, I wouldn't consider "dissapointment" a relevant reaction.

We're not going to be making any relevant progress on this issue any time soon.
I had thought Obama was smart enough to know that even best case w/ alternatives he would need some nuclear, at the very least to get busy w/ replacing aging existing US plants, and that the tiptoing was in part plotting a political course, and maybe looking for some better 'reach' technology (i.e. gen4) that would help w/ proliferation, cost, etc. The present course, to include no more drilling and the http://www.platts.com/Nuclear/News/8375101.xml?src=Nuclearrssheadlines1" , is just stupid.

From the budget today released by the White House:
The yucca Mountain program will be scaled back to those costs necessary to answer inquiries from the Nuclear regulatory Commission, while the Administration devises a new strategy toward nuclear waste disposal
http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/budgetblueprint02262009.pdf
 
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  • #276
russ_watters said:
Some people knew that his tiptoing around the nuclear issue during the campaign was just for show. There won't be any progress on nuclear power regulations unless it is forced on him and since we have a Democrat Congress, that's not going to happen. I am so unsurprised, I wouldn't consider "dissapointment" a relevant reaction.

We're not going to be making any relevant progress on this issue any time soon.



Well, I have been disappointed ever since probably his run against McCain since during his Democratic primaries he was actually among the biggest proponents of nuclear power.
 
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  • #277
aerospaceut10 said:
Well, I have been disappointed ever since probably his run against McCain since during his Democratic primaries he was actually among the biggest proponents of nuclear power.

Russ's 'tiptoeing' description is more accurate than 'proponent':
CFR said:
At a debate in January 2008, Obama said he would support more nuclear power if it could be made cost-efficient and safe, and the waste stored effectively. He noted, if that can be done, "then we should pursue it because what we don't want is to produce more greenhouse gases."
http://www.cfr.org/publication/14755/
 
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  • #278
To be a little more complete, he took some flak for being against nuclear power so he created that position (in the quote) as a response to it. It's a pointless position because compromise is an inherrent part of putting together policy and he's simply acknowledging the potential need to compromise on the issue...but that doesn't at all imply his actual position changed.

So far he has not made any moves to block nuclear power, and I hope, at least, that that will continue. Nuclear power could use help, but it is starting to come back on its own.
 
  • #279
russ_watters said:
...So far he has not made any moves to block nuclear power, and I hope, at least, that that will continue. Nuclear power could use help, but it is starting to come back on its own.
There I disagree, I think nuclear is dead in the US under the current policy, unfortunately. Nuclear is expensive but it had some hope with a government that agreed to a) help out with waste policy and b) at least do no harm with baseless law suits and delaying actions. Without that much help, nobody is ever going to float billion dollar bonds for a nuclear plant.

Edit: the most direct way to remedy this policy error IMO is to force energy secretary Chu to discuss the matter. Unlike a purely political appointee, with his background he should not be allowed to delay and obfuscate on the subject by deferring to the experts.
 
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  • #280
mheslep said:
There I disagree, I think nuclear is dead in the US under the current policy, unfortunately. Nuclear is expensive but it had some hope with a government that agreed to a) help out with waste policy and b) at least do no harm with baseless law suits and delaying actions. Without that much help, nobody is ever going to float billion dollar bonds for a nuclear plant.

Edit: the most direct way to remedy this policy error IMO is to force energy secretary Chu to discuss the matter. Unlike a purely political appointee, with his background he should not be allowed to delay and obfuscate on the subject by deferring to the experts.

For nuclear power plants, most of them where made in the late 20th century. Instead of making new plants, most existing plants should be up-dated to the 21th century. Obama isn't the one that makes the public policy to the nation, but only Congress with an exception of the executive order w. Most of the policy about energy comes from Congress and not from the President. The way that the President influences policy is by the OMB, State of the Union Address, his approval rating, vetoing legislation, signing statements, and some others. Congress spends more than half on entitlement and the rest on discretion and funded programs. One way that you can change this is by writing to your representative of Congress which are the ones that makes the policy that affects our lives.

The other form of nuclear energy will be from fusion until it becomes available to us to use. It isn't the government agreeing on nuclear power is the interest groups that lobby Congress for it and against it, so Congress has to compromise somewhere with both groups.
 
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  • #281
Personally, I don't have much of a problem with nuclear power. :rolleyes:

http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/inf34.html"
The US Navy has accumulated over 5500 reactor years of accident-free experience, and operates more than 80 nuclear-powered ships (with 103 reactors as of early 2005).

As long as they are built and operated well.
 
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  • #282
mheslep said:
...
Edit: the most direct way to remedy this policy error IMO is to force energy secretary Chu to discuss the matter. Unlike a purely political appointee, with his background he should not be allowed to delay and obfuscate on the subject by deferring to the experts.
Go Senator McCain:
http://blogs.wsj.com/environmentalcapital/2009/03/06/yucca-mountain-mccain-goes-nuclear-on-chu/
“What’s wrong with Yucca Mountain, Mr. Chu?” Mr. McCain asked at the hearing.

“I think we can do a better job,” Mr. Chu replied.

“We’re going to have spent fuel sitting around in pools all over America,” Mr. McCain said. “To say after 20 years and $9 billion dollars spent on Yucca Mountain that it’s not an option is a remarkable statement . . . It’s clear industry isn’t interested in the construction of nuclear power plants because we have no place to store” nuclear waste.

Mr. Chu said the administration plans to come up with a new plan for storing spent nuclear fuel later this year. “I want to seek the best advice of deeply knowledgeable people,” he said. He cited assurances from the Nuclear Regulatory Commission that interim storage of waste at nuclear plants is safe, but was vague about what options the administration sees for long-term storage.
"Better job ... seek best advice"
What an utterly lame, completely political, response from Chu. I was expecting much better.

Complete transcript
http://neinuclearnotes.blogspot.com/2009/03/john-mccain-and-steven-chu-on-yucca.html
 
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  • #283
brewnog said:
Ever find that article, Topher?

No, I haven't. I'm not to sure about its accuracy anyway since the economics of biofuels can only be roughly estimated. Lots of pointless articles about land requirements though. http://www.ecogeek.org/content/view/1454/ On a side note, First Solar broke the $1 barrier last week. w00t!, I own FS stock.
http://www.businessgreen.com/business-green/news/2237250/first-solar-reaches-dollar-per
 
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  • #285
I know, its a great stock! I also bought it when it was only ~70 a share.

Its doing a hell of a lot better than most.

GE: 52-Week High = 38.52, Today = 7.14
 
  • #286
mheslep said:
What an utterly lame, completely political, response from Chu. I was expecting much better.
I heard about this (surprisingly, it got almost no press :confused: ). So it would appear I was wrong: the Obama administration has already fired their first shot against nuclear power, and it was a big one. This is very, very bad.
 
  • #287
The Obama administration wants to end the recession as fast as possible, even though from the stimulus pack, we are more into debt than ever before. The shots where already fired here in California where both, I think, propositions for research and to start creating renewable resourses didn't pass, but what did pass was a bullet train from San Francisco to Los Angeles on the worse time were the state is going bankrupt. This is what a private industry should be making not the government. The first shots against nuclear power aren't going to be the last ones.
 
  • #288
mheslep said:
"Better job ... seek best advice"
What an utterly lame, completely political, response from Chu. I was expecting much better.
I agree. Chu's statement is disappointing to say the least.

No new plants will be built until there is a final disposition on spent fuel. It cannot stay at reactor sites indefinitely, unless each site is expected to develop a final respository. The government should then just refund the money that has been collected on the premise that a final solution was being developed.

I thought the middle of Wyoming would be a great place. There's a natural bowl surrounded by mountain ranges.

I'd like to see reprocessing with recycle of the U, Pu and vitrification of fission products which can then be buried in a geologically stable formation like Yucca mountain.

Clearly Reid does not want any spent fuel in Nevada, and many in the Clinton administration has no inclination to support nuclear energy, if they weren't opposed to it.
 
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  • #289
I'd like to see a fully closed fuel cycle with reprocessing and breeder reactors. Some mixture of fast breeders like IFR (sodium cooled) and GFR (helium), and thermal breeders based on Th232/U233 (the fluoride-salt MSR for instance). I think, by simultaneously investing in both conventional light-water reactors (and CANDUs), plus breeder reactors, nuclear power could satisfy a majority (or all) of the world's energy demand. It is symbiotic: the conventional reactors produce tons of fissile plutonium + minor actinide fuel, which is needed in large amounts to start up the breeder reactors. Conversely, excess plutonium from breeders would return to the light-water reactors as MOX fuel.
 
  • #290
Astronuc said:
I thought the middle of Wyoming would be a great place. There's a natural bowl surrounded by mountain ranges.

I think you need a very specific type of clay soil for the storage of nuclear waste. Something about very dense, stable, and relatively impermeable to water, so you can't just pick any mountain range or stable region to bury the stuff at.

I always thought the original A-bomb testing grounds would be good. The place is already contaminated and off limits.

I'd like to see a fully closed fuel cycle with reprocessing and breeder reactors.

I think we all would.
 
  • #291
Topher925 said:
I think you need a very specific type of clay soil for the storage of nuclear waste. Something about very dense, stable, and relatively impermeable to water, so you can't just pick any mountain range or stable region to bury the stuff at.
Soil? Soil is permeable.

The ideal site is rock that has been geologically stable for millions of years and likely to remain so, e.g. basalt or granite.

I always thought the original A-bomb testing grounds would be good. The place is already contaminated and off limits.
Yucca Mountain is on the western side of the Nevada Test Site, and that's one reason it was selected. It's already Federal land.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/23/Wfm_area51_map_en.png
 
  • #292
Topher925 said:
I always thought the original A-bomb testing grounds would be good. The place is already contaminated and off limits.

Even though the area is off limits, the nuclear test sites are under federal land which are under the Military sovereignty unless Congress allows nuclear waste to be stored there. Its off limits to the public, not to the Military or to federal government.
 
  • #293
I think the original concept of this thread was "how you" would fix the U.S. energy crises", and was not intended to be some political energy rag site that abounds everywhere, while the problem(s) continue. I my view, political interference into some issue usually occurs to cloud and issue, and protect the status quo.
It does little to cure a problem, and only makes the lobbyist, attorney's, politicians, and the media wealthy. In the end, the issue dies on the vine of boredom, and we still have the problem.

I retired after 35 years from generating electrical power by steam, (oil, natural gas, coal, and nuclear), jet engine peaking units, and hydro electric.
The best, the cheapest, the safest environmentally is hydro. Geo thermal is pretty good, and Hawaii is currently getting about 40% of it's electrical energy from it. And there is no fuel cost.
Fossil fired boilers are about 35% efficient, very reliable, but are not only damaging from green house gases they produce, but in sucking up "vast" quantities of resources. How vast this consumption is, is seldom realized by the public.
A quick example is coal. To fire a coal fired steam plant producing 650 MW's requires 10,000 tons of coal per 24 hours. 5,000,000 lbs. of air "an hour".
Of all that heat energy generated, 1/3 of it up the smoke stack, and about another 1/3 goes out the cooling towers, and 1/3 is converted to electrical power.
After burning all that coal you are left with about 5,000 tons a day of very acidic, sterile bottom ash and fly ash waste, that needs to be reburied someplace, where it can not get into the water supply.
True, coal is relatively cheap in relation to other fuels, but it is cheap only in a certain context, i.e.; BTU's. Environmental damage factors are not factored into its BTU cost advantage.
There are approximately 300, 650 MW + sized steam plants in the U.S. alone. From that, one begins to literally "see" the environmental problems they cause.
Oil and natural gas, being slightly less environmentally damaging, but are "much" more expensive fuel wise to operate. And both fuels are becoming more expensive and hard to find with time. And, as we all know, they continue to fuel the energy crisis.
Nuclear power is cheap. That's a laugh! Nuclear steam plants are not that efficient when compared to fossil fueled plants that run 2300 to 3200 psi throttle pressure and a steam temperature of 1010*F. (Higher pressure = higher efficiency)
Nuclear plants run in the neighborhood of 800 to a 900 psi on the newer ones, and much less on the older ones. The reason is their heat exchanger is located between the reactor and the steam processor that feeds the steam turbine. It becomes almost impossible above a 900 psi to design a high efficiency heat exchanger that can handle 800*F temperatures, and "NOT EVER" develop a leak caused from reactor coolant fluid flow erosion, corrosion, or the varying of thermal cycling.
Most people also forget, that cheap nuclear power is subsidized by the tax payer. "ALL" nuclear mining, processing, and sale is controlled and supervised by the government(s). Who then sells the pellets to the utility industry at "an agreed on cost". Usually 55% of the true cost in producing the pellet to make it competitive most other fuel costs. The taxpayer is picking up the difference.
Maintaining the radioactive waste is also controlled and paid for by the government, (taxpayer) "FOREVER". True, no green house gases are produced by nukes, but huge amounts of radioactive waste is.
Nuclear power has its place. In the ocean, powering submarines in my book.
Radioactive waste is bad stuff. Given time, there are very few of natures elements it will not turn literally, to dust.
And if it is compressed to save store space for example, it gets hotter, both in temperature and radioactivity. It is also very corrosive. This is why there is a BIG, BIG problem of its disposal and longterm storage.
I have found it interesting, that at the beginning of my career, the solution to "the nuclear waste problem" was just over the hill. At the end of my career, 35 years later, it was still, just over the hill. Almost no "practical" solution has yet been found. That kind of sums up how difficult this problem really is, and why the Earth's core is still molten from radioactive decay 4.5 billion years later.
Solar energy. Solar energy is expensive to produce, and only works when the sun shines. But let's take a closer look at it. Even though the current generation of solar cells are only 15% or so efficient, and expensive to produce. Solar, like hydro and wind power, has no fuel cost. Thus saving hundreds of millions in fuel bills, lost resources, and producing no green house gases over the life of that generating source.
Also plant maintenance is practically eliminated in comparison to a normal fossil fuel steam, or nuke plant. Consequently, though more expensive per MW to build, it pays for itself much-much quicker through reduced operating costs and becomes a cheap source.
Solar also, along with wind and hydro, does not increase the temperature of the Earths environment, beyond what the natural shinning of the sunlight on the Earth would cause. If global warming is a consideration, this is a major advantage.
Wind is extremely practical, and is springing up everywhere the wind blows enough to justify its use. But again, it only works when the wind blows.
Wave power. I don't consider wave power a viable power source, beyond servicing small isolated areas, or islands. The robustness of their design to deal with storms, tides, problems with marine growth, makes them extremely expensive for the little power they produce.

If I were to have my way in fixing the energy crises, I would do four things.
#1 Increase the intertie distribution network throughout the U.S. to take more advantage of the cyclic nature of electrical power use across the nation as the time of the day and usage moves across the country.
#2 Eliminate much of the unnecessary lighting of highways, roads, as well as advertising. The amount of electrical power wasted for these items is absolutely staggering! In reality much of this waste produces little safety or practical benefit. Much of it is for just "psychological security and safety", and prevents little crime or accidents. The advertising illumination could still be done of course, but with much lower and practical intensity.
One only has to look at the night sky on an overcast night to see all the energy going to waste, lighting up the clouds. Or look at the satellite photographs of the Earth at night and see the huge amounts of energy being wasted...world wide. Keeping in mind of course, that a majority of this light is reflected off the ground, (a very poor reflector) and was not originally intended in its designed use, to be beamed into space. But to light the area around it.
#3 Future good hydro location sites are almost gone now. Geothermal sites are very limited in the U.S. Though Iceland gets by fine with them, as does Hawaii.
However solar energy is world wide. True the conversion of solar cells are not very efficient, and takes a very large area to produce large amounts of power. However, there are many vacant south facing roof tops in the U.S. The tax incentive for installing an entire solar cell covered south facing roof, plus a percentage cut of the power the roof produced, would not only be extremely practical from the homeowners prospective, but also supply his needs, as well as any excess into the grid.
A large utility solar array farm, could be devoted to converting solar power into heat, and used to melt salt, where the heat stored in the molten salt is used to run turbine generators during the night, or during cloudy days.
The key here is using what's available, and practical in a particular region, and being able to ship any excess to a need elsewhere with a minimum of loss.
There will still be a need for nukes, and fossil fuel plants, but much-much less so than we are lead to believe.
The electrical industry is extremely conservative, and in many ways this is good. It makes for reliable service. But the industry also wants control, and also wants tax write off's on their generating equipment. Plus the investors want a maximum return on their investment. So efficiency and environmental damage sometimes become secondary.
I think we are at the beginning of a new way of looking at energy. Just as a point is now being realized where increasing the miles per gallon of fuel in a vehicle, has got to the point that the vehicles accessories power use are suddenly becoming a major offender to increasing that MPG of the vehicle. Ten years ago a vehicles accessories were never a real consideration. Now with the development of hybrid cars, it is becoming a real concern.
In the same aspect, smaller distribution areas, supplying their own power needs for that moment by using the best environmental resources available in that area are becoming very viable as the population density increases, and they become practical.
This concept has several advantages. It is more efficient, more reliable, cheaper to construct, less targetable, and less vulnerable to storm, or other natural disaster damage affects.
#4 Finally, I would make research into a practical means of storing electrical energy an extremely high priority. It is "The Key" to any future system.
Unfortunately, certain industries do not want others meddling in their market nitch, and consequently suppress alternative research, (unless they thought of it) and control patent use, to maximize their products.
In some ways, when such improvements could affect the welfare of the entire country, or the health of the Earth, I view such greed as a crime against humanity.
Industry view it as improving business.

boab
 
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  • #294
boab said:
The best, the cheapest, the safest environmentally is hydro.
No, overstated.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_issues_with_the_Three_Gorges_Dam
And although hydro is predictable, it is unreliable due to flow variation.

boab said:
...There are approximately 300, 650 MW + sized steam plants in the U.S. alone.
Very accurate guess. There were 266 plants 650MWe or greater as of 2005 (EIA data). :biggrin:
 
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  • #295
http://www.sciam.com/blog/60-second-science/post.cfm?id=after-20-years-new-life-for-cold-fu-2009-03-23

Hope is a good friend. Maybe it's coming.
 
  • #296
misgfool said:
http://www.sciam.com/blog/60-second-science/post.cfm?id=after-20-years-new-life-for-cold-fu-2009-03-23

Hope is a good friend. Maybe it's coming.


My my. There's one sure way to find out whether fusion is happening, and that is the detection of tons of fast neutrons coming out, say, by experimenters vomiting and dropping dead to the floor from the moment some substantial amount of power is produced.

I really, really don't see how you could have D + something without having also fast neutron production. There is simply no known exclusive reaction channel that does so.
 
  • #297
vanesch said:
My my. There's one sure way to find out whether fusion is happening, and that is the detection of tons of fast neutrons coming out, say, by experimenters vomiting and dropping dead to the floor from the moment some substantial amount of power is produced.

I really, really don't see how you could have D + something without having also fast neutron production. There is simply no known exclusive reaction channel that does so.
That seems to be one reason why this is interesting: no neutrons, yet people keep finding He and gamma products. Is it all poor technique, simply background? I don't think that's a reasonable answer any more.
 
  • #298
vanesch said:
My my. There's one sure way to find out whether fusion is happening, and that is the detection of tons of fast neutrons coming out, say, by experimenters vomiting and dropping dead to the floor from the moment some substantial amount of power is produced.

I think cold "fusion" releases such small amounts of energy that there wouldn't be enough energy to kill the scientists or even boil the water it supposedly occurs in.

Here's a link to a seminar by George Crabtree that I unfortunately had to miss last week. It's basically just a brief overview of current and future sustainably.
http://techtv.mit.edu/collections/m...e-crabtree---the-sustainable-energy-challenge
 
  • #299
Originally Posted by boab
The best, the cheapest, the safest environmentally is hydro.

---------------------------------------------------------

No, overstated.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environ...ree_Gorges_Dam
And although hydro is predictable, it is unreliable due to flow variation.

------------------------------------

Maybe overstated, but it depends on your prospective. The Three Gorges Dam is a ecological nightmare. It was designed not only with power generation in mind, but with national prestige in mind. The old "Mine is bigger than yours" bit. So it wasn't stair stepped, with smaller dams along the river, as is the norm for hydro efficiency. Consequently it caused more major environmental and cultural problems, than stair stepping would have.
BUT, it also will have a generation capacity of something on the order of 21,000 MW's. Which is about 3 times that of Coolee Dam, which is the largest in the U.S. Also I think that it should also be considered that that 21,000 MW's produces no greenhouse gases, and does not add heat to the Earth's environment than would normally occur from the Sun.
Now if we take that 21,000 MW capability, and divide that by a typical 650 MW coal fired steam plant using 10,000 tons of coal per day, (24 hrs) we see that Three Gorges Dam replaces 32.3 coal fired steam plants. Or the burning of 323,077 tons of coal "a day", to say nothing of all the greenhouse gases and pollution produced.
China has huge stocks of coal, and as far as air quality goes as a nation, it is about the worst in the world by far. L.A. doesn't have a clue how bad, bad air can get!

So yes, I agree Three Gorges is a bad thing. But it is much better at doing what it does as far as producing hydro electrical power, than the effects of 323,077 tons of coal being burned a day to fill the gap, and the environmental mining fallout to produce that much coal and get rid of the ash.
As has been mentioned several times by some of the writers here, WE are the actual problem that caused/(s) all the pollution, and the energy crises. We want to control everything in Nature...but ourselves, and our greed.

boab
 
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  • #300
boab said:
Originally Posted by boab
The best, the cheapest, the safest environmentally is hydro.
...So yes, I agree Three Gorges is a bad thing. But it is much better at doing what it does as far as producing hydro electrical power, than the effects of 323,077 tons of coal being burned a day to fill the gap, and the environmental mining fallout to produce that much coal and get rid of the ash.
As has been mentioned several times by some of the writers here, WE are the actual problem that caused/(s) all the pollution, and the energy crises. We want to control everything in Nature...but ourselves, and our greed.

boab
Sure, compared to coal, but you said environmentally 'safest'. I'd place nuclear and any of the the renewables (others) in front of hydro.
 
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