Japan Earthquake: Nuclear Plants at Fukushima Daiichi

AI Thread Summary
The Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant is facing significant challenges following the earthquake, with reports indicating that reactor pressure has reached dangerous levels, potentially 2.1 times capacity. TEPCO has lost control of pressure at a second unit, raising concerns about safety and management accountability. The reactor is currently off but continues to produce decay heat, necessitating cooling to prevent a meltdown. There are conflicting reports about an explosion, with indications that it may have originated from a buildup of hydrogen around the containment vessel. The situation remains serious, and TEPCO plans to flood the containment vessel with seawater as a cooling measure.
  • #10,401
clancy688 said:
Big thanks! The graph is interesting indeed.

There was a MAJOR C137 release going on for at least one day between March 30th and 31st. 100 TBq/h, makes 2400 TBq C137. Converted value: 96.000 TBq, over 10% of the total number. That alone would be sufficient for an INES 7 classification. What happened that day?

Or is this a mistake on my part, did I read the chart wrong?

In case it's real: Then screw my previous comments about airborne releases and the number not rising anymore - in that case, those are wrong of course.

I don't think you are reading the chart wrong,but due to a lack of official narrative about air release events past the first week, I cannot really tell you what happened on that day, but I do intend to look into it further again sometime. It was the even higher magnitude release estimated for a time on March 15th that got most of my attention when I first found this document.

As for the number not rising significantly anymore, using computer translation of that NSC document I am fairly sure their estimated total releases covers the entire period shown in that graph, so their figure of 630,000 TBq covers the includes the end of March figure you mention. Actually this document also shows that they slightly revised upwards their calculation for total release of Caesium. Using INES conversion I think the new NSC-calculated total release for period up to 6th April was 670,000 TBq. Crucially I don't think any high magnitude releases beyond the dates covered by this report have been mentioned, so I believe your point that later daily releases don't make very much difference to the estimated total is still valid.
 
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  • #10,402
Bodge said:
The CTBTO monitoring is back.

I find the I-131 peaks to be indicative of ongoing fission somewhere on the site.

I believe we still need to check for other factors which could cause spikes in such data. For example weather.
 
  • #10,403
SteveElbows said:
I am fairly sure their estimated total releases covers the entire period shown in that graph, so their figure of 630,000 TBq covers the includes the end of March figure you mention. Actually this document also shows that they slightly revised upwards their calculation for total release of Caesium. Using INES conversion I think the new NSC-calculated total release for period up to 6th April was 670,000 TBq. Crucially I don't think any high magnitude releases beyond the dates covered by this report have been mentioned, so I believe your point that later daily releases don't make very much difference to the estimated total is still valid.

Well, there's a problem. On page 4 there's another chart showing exact values and time periods. I used it to calculate the whole C137 release (no time for I131, maybe tomorrow). Released Cesium (per hour) is (Release Rate / (1 + I/C Ratio)).
But I'm coming 2000 TBq short. NSC's estimate was a release of 12.000 TBq C137. I only get 10.000 using their numbers.
Oh, and the exact C137 release for March 30th-31st would be 1900 TBq (unconverted) or 75.000 TBq (converted).
 
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  • #10,404
SteveElbows said:
I don't think you are reading the chart wrong,but due to a lack of official narrative about air release events past the first week, I cannot really tell you what happened on that day, but I do intend to look into it further again sometime. It was the even higher magnitude release estimated for a time on March 15th that got most of my attention when I first found this document.

As for the number not rising significantly anymore, using computer translation of that NSC document I am fairly sure their estimated total releases covers the entire period shown in that graph, so their figure of 630,000 TBq covers the includes the end of March figure you mention. Actually this document also shows that they slightly revised upwards their calculation for total release of Caesium. Using INES conversion I think the new NSC-calculated total release for period up to 6th April was 670,000 TBq. Crucially I don't think any high magnitude releases beyond the dates covered by this report have been mentioned, so I believe your point that later daily releases don't make very much difference to the estimated total is still valid.

Did you guys look at the way the releases acknowledged by TEPCO in the document you mentioned are reflected in the CTBTO charts, posted before? Is it reasonable to back extrapolate from that and take a rough guess at newer non-reported releases at later dates from the peaks in the graphs? Am I making sense?
 
  • #10,406
tsutsuji said:
The daily Kurion-Areva facility trouble :

http://sankei.jp.msn.com/affairs/news/110630/dst11063022440037-n1.htm (and http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/nu/fukushima-np/images/handouts_110630_05-e.pdf ) : On 30 June the decontamination facility was stopped for flushing between 10:46 AM and 1:35 PM. The facility was restarted but after one hour it had to stop again because of an alarm signalling that gasses are unable to evacuate through the exhaust stack at the Areva facility.

http://www.nikkei.com/news/headline...19481E1E2E2E19A8DE1E2E2E4E0E2E3E39797E0E2E2E3 The facility started again at 6:50 PM (30 June).

http://mainichi.jp/select/jiken/news/20110701k0000e040075000c.html the reason of the trouble was a mistake in the control of the water level in a tank. Although the water level must be set at 3% above the bottom when the facility is stopped and 30% when it is running, the facility had been started with the level still set at 3%.

http://www.nikkei.com/news/headline...19595E2E3E2E2E58DE2E3E2E5E0E2E3E39790E0E2E2E2 : from 1 July to 4 July, Tepco will be installing a new water tank whose purpose is to centralise the two water routes (the route from the filtrate tank, and the route from the water purification facility) that take water to the reactors. The new tank will have a 1000 ton capacity. On 1 July the cooling is switched back to the filtrate water tank. The new "buffer tank" is shown on the diagram at http://www.tepco.co.jp/nu/fukushima-np/images/handouts_110701_02-j.pdf . At the same time, the PVC hoses will be changed to steel pipes.
 
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  • #10,407
elektrownik said:
Yes but this new water injection system is almost the same as concrede pump, so this shouldn't act on sst water level
interesting data and photos from today about unit 4:
http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/nu/fukushima-np/images/handouts_110630_03-e.pdf

Hallelujah we finally have an official TEPCO diagram for the refueling floor at unit 4. Very interesting pictures. How very strange to see the reactor well open to the sun and sky looking like a large swimming pool.
 
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  • #10,408
Bodge said:
The CTBTO monitoring is back.

I find the I-131 peaks to be indicative of ongoing fission somewhere on the site.

[PLAIN]http://www.bfs.de/de/ion/imis/ctbto_aktivitaetskonzentrationen_jod.gif
[PLAIN]http://www.bfs.de/de/ion/imis/ctbto_aktivitaetskonzentrationen_caesium.gif

I find they show the exact opposite.

If fresh I-131 was produced by fission and released then one would expect levels to come back to the same levels in the first chart after every fission event, more or less. The fact that both the valleys and peaks of the iodine curves drift down in line with logarithmic decay indicates that no fresh I-131 is being produced. The ups and downs are probably mostly driven by weather conditions, such as changes in wind directions, rain, etc.

The second argument against ongoing fission is that the ratio of iodine to cesium is shifting just the way one would expect from decay. Cesium has been holding almost steady (with some random ups and downs) since later March, while iodine keeps falling (also with some ups and downs). That's precisely what one would expect in the absence of ongoing fission, given the different half lives (Cs-134: 2 y; Cs-137: 30 y; I-131: 8 d). If there were fresh releases from ongoing fission, the cesium and iodine curves would look a lot more alike than they do.
 
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  • #10,409
MiceAndMen said:
elektrownik said:
Yes but this new water injection system is almost the same as concrede pump, so this shouldn't act on sst water level
interesting data and photos from today about unit 4:
http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/nu/fukushima-np/images/handouts_110630_03-e.pdf
Hallelujah we finally have an official TEPCO diagram for the refueling floor at unit 4. Very interesting pictures. How very strange to see the reactor well open to the sun and sky looking like a large swimming pool.

I am attaching horizontal views of Fukushima 1 unit 1, looking north and looking west. Units 2-5 are somewhat different, but it should still be a useful reference.
 

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  • #10,410
how can there be no new Iodine-131 when there is
800 tons of corium laying about all over the place
at Fukushima Daiichi?
 
  • #10,411
joewein said:
I am attaching horizontal views of Fukushima 1 unit 1, looking north and looking west. Units 2-5 are somewhat different, but it should still be a useful reference.

Thanks, but those are hardly new. The drawing of the refueling floor in Unit 4 is new and finally confirms the layout of the reactor well, the SFP and the oblong equipment pool. A lot of what we had surmised about the layout is now confirmed.

In the same pdf, I'm having trouble placing the bottom left photo with regards to where the camera was positioned and which way it is pointing. The caption may be wrong as well.
 
  • #10,412
Here is another photo from their adventure on the refuelling floor at reactor 4:

http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/news/110311/images/110701_1.jpg

Finally a view of the spent fuel pool that puts much in perspective, including the large round area that is partially separated from the rest of the pool. We can now see why it has a square round it on diagrams.
 
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  • #10,413
causeceleb said:
how can there be no new Iodine-131 when there is
800 tons of corium laying about all over the place
at Fukushima Daiichi?

I'm not sure where you got that figure.

Unit 1 contained 68 t of fuel while units 2 and 3 contained 94 t each. Therefore, assuming their cores completely melted, the amount of corium should be roughly a third of the figure you gave.

Second, it's been 111 days since the active reactors in Fukushima were shut down. That means tomorrow it will be 14 full half lives of I-131. Whatever amount of cesium existed on March 11, whether it stayed inside the plant or escaped into the environment, only 1 / 4096 of it still exists. 99.976% of it has since decayed. Even if some I-131 still escaped with steam, it probably was decaying faster outside than it could be replaced by ongoing releases.

By now the major problem is cesium, not I-131.
 
  • #10,414
MiceAndMen said:
In the same pdf, I'm having trouble placing the bottom left photo with regards to where the camera was positioned and which way it is pointing. The caption may be wrong as well.

The caption isn't brilliant, but I have some sense of where this photo is taken, due to the yellow containment cap location which we know well.

Camera is pointing North, so equipment pit is in the far distance. Reactor well is just in front of cameraman, and cameraman could probably have shot the next photo of the reactor well without moving, just by pointing camera down and to the right somewhat. This may not be what actually happened, as reactor well photo may have ben taken from opposite side, I am just trying to illustrate what I believe to be the camera position relative to reactor well in the photo you mention.
 
  • #10,415
SteveElbows said:
The caption isn't brilliant, but I have some sense of where this photo is taken, due to the yellow containment cap location which we know well.

Camera is pointing North, so equipment pit is in the far distance. Reactor well is just in front of cameraman, and cameraman could probably have shot the next photo of the reactor well without moving, just by pointing camera down and to the right somewhat. This may not be what actually happened, as reactor well photo may have ben taken from opposite side, I am just trying to illustrate what I believe to be the camera position relative to reactor well in the photo you mention.

I think you got the direction right, but I believe it was taken just a few meters further south, perhaps next to the green "bridge" (which I presume is the "Fuel Exchange Truck", a crane).

When you look at the http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/news/110311/images/110701_1.jpg" and the right one showing the pool gate, while the middle one of the reactor well shows the rusty one.

I wish those two structures where shown on the floor map as the green one is.
 
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  • #10,416
joewein said:
Unit 1 contained 68 t of fuel while units 2 and 3 contained 94 t each. Therefore, assuming their cores completely melted, the amount of corium should be roughly a third of the figure you gave.

Corium does not only consist of fuel elements, but also of everything else which melted because of the immense decay heat: Control rods, RPV steel, concrete... so you'll get more corium than there were fuel rods.

Still that 800 ton number is probably way to big...
 
  • #10,417
joewein said:
ITherefore, assuming their cores completely melted, the amount of corium should be roughly a third of the figure you gave.
Corium is not only made of melted fuel but also incorporates control rods, melted steel from RPV, rods support assembly and probably a lot of other "stuff" like pipes, bolts... If 100% or each core has melted through RPV, total corium weight might be initially around 260 T (Fuel) + all other stuff surrounding that "hot affair".
 
  • #10,418
joewein said:
I think you got the direction right, but I believe it was taken just a few meters further south, perhaps next to the green "bridge" (which I presume is the "Fuel Exchange Truck", a crane).

When you look at the http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/news/110311/images/110701_1.jpg" and the right one showing the pool gate, while the middle one of the reactor well shows the rusty one.

I wish those two structures where shown on the floor map as the green one is.

Yeah you are probably right. Actually looking at the angle that the bottom left photo on the pdf was taken at, it seems to be looking down on quite a lot of this stuff, so I think they may have climbed at least some of the steps of the green refuelling structure before taking the photo.

As for the two white bridges, I think there may actually be three structures. One to the south of the reactor well, one to the north of the well that we can barely see, and the slightly rusty structure that's over the reactor well is suspended from these other two by way of the beams that are oriented north-south that we can see near the top of the photo.

And just for the sake of avoiding any confusion by others reading this discussion, the yellow containment cap is in the distance and hardly looks yellow in the photo of the fuel pool, the more obviously yellow thing in that photo is something else.
 
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  • #10,419
We know that 50 pounds of Plutonium in one place is enough to get a nuclear reaction. With over a ton in the melting mass it would be easy to imagine a reaction happening, which then causes the mass to disperse, then another blob forms, random short critical masses forming and being blown apart at random. Plutonium doesn't need a neutron moderator to go critical.
 
  • #10,420
Joe Neubarth said:
Hence the radioactive Iodine spikes. Weather can not find a hidden reservoir of Iodine that it suddenly taps. I suppose Iodine can be concentrated in the mist in rain clouds, but was it raining from lingering rain clouds every time there was a spike? I don't think so.

I keep an open mind about what is possible, its just that so far I have not seen evidence that is strong enough for me to properly buy into criticality theories. I can partially buy into the idea that it could have happened in the very early days of the disaster, but there just has not been any later developments with on site radiation levels that were interesting enough to make me dwell too much on whether it happened again after March.

I think you may need to study the scale which is used on that graph. The spikes are really not as impressive as you may be thinking they are.
 
  • #10,421
i have to think they got a handle on preventing criticality pretty early on. i remain suspicious about unit 3 explosion, but am waiting patiently for more info..

Around 20 March was a temporary increase in injection rate of water to unit 3 and jorge stolfi's plots show they were able to cool the reactor using their fire trucks.
http://www.ic.unicamp.br/~stolfi/EXPORT/projects/fukushima/plots/cur/out/plot-un3-t-I-full.png
That to me ruled out ongoing criticality , for were that monster critical it could boil a swimming pool dry in twenty seconds and they would not have been able to achieve the 100C reading on "core nozzle temperature" the brown line.Here's excerpt from something i wrote way back in May on another forum, about Jorge's unit 3 plots - repeated here really just to point out what a great job he did with those charts.

Now select the TCb X Pc plot. http://www.ic.unicamp.br/~stolfi/EXPORT/projects/fukushima/plots/cur/out/ptmp-TCn-PCA-un3-full.png [/URL] That one's easy. The bottom of vessel has always been hot enough to boil the water in the vessel. Well except for a couple readings and it'd be logical they pushed their injection up to verify they could cool it. That would be smart for it'd positively rule out ongoing criticality and is something an egghead would think of. Or it could be just that they were getting the hang of controlling temperature with fire pumps. On second thought it would make real good sense to do that experiment given the press speculation about ongoing criticality and could be the basis they asserted in the press release about Neutron Beams "no criticality has occured."[/quote]


[url]http://tickerforum.org/akcs-www?post=182121&page=314[/url]
 
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  • #10,423
joewein said:
I think you got the direction right, but I believe it was taken just a few meters further south, perhaps next to the green "bridge" (which I presume is the "Fuel Exchange Truck", a crane).

When you look at the http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/news/110311/images/110701_1.jpg" and the right one showing the pool gate, while the middle one of the reactor well shows the rusty one.
The south beam of the white crane structure is not visible in the middle photo because it is shot standing on it :-) towards the north and rusty beam.

I wish those two structures where shown on the floor map as the green one is.

I have marked up the floor map and two of the photos you speak of, it may help to show the approximate position of the white crane construction, and the different positions and angles of the camera of the two photos.
 

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  • #10,424
Joe Neubarth said:
Guys, I think some of those spikes in Iodine were the results of some ongoing criticality somewhere in the Fukushima site.

Do you guys remember Arnie's "Breathing" comments on Reactor One? Do you remember the detection of Neutron Beams outside of the reactor buildings? I don't know that I ever saw a complete explanation about that. We probably never will get one either.

According to the gamma radiation readings (CAMS) of Unit 1's Drywell B there is still a lot of on/off activity happening. I'm no scientist, but I think this data-graph speaks for itselves:
2m5o0gi.jpg


Source:http://www.ianbradshaw.co.uk/multimedia/fukushima/tepco.html
----------------------------------------
Can anyone interpret these spikes?
 
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  • #10,425
greenpharao said:
According to the gamma radiation readings (CAMS) of Unit 1's Drywell B there is still a lot of on/off activity happening. I'm no scientist, but I think this data-graph speaks for itselves

Can anyone interpret these spikes?

300 Sv/h is 30000 R/h, which is very high dose.

If it's caused by periodic criticality, there would be *a lot* of neutrons, hard to miss. Therefore I highly doubt it. Even TEPCO would not be arrogant enough to think it can hide it.

My guess is, broken sensor, or intermittently shielded blob of corium nearby, such as: corium periodically covered by water. When it's covered (-> shielded), activity is low. When it isn't, it's through the roof.
 
  • #10,426
greenpharao said:
According to the gamma radiation readings (CAMS) of Unit 1's Drywell B there is still a lot of on/off activity happening. I'm no scientist, but I think this data-graph speaks for itselves:

----------------------------------------
Can anyone interpret these spikes?
I am not qualified to authoritatively speak to ongoing recriticality or its possible variants, but there are three pieces of evidence about that particular sensor (#1 CAM B):

1) it has been marked as 'under survey' (aka broken) by tepco for a long time now
2) the sister sensor (CAM A) shows no such spikes
3) all of the temp sensors for #1 shows no evidence of spikes

btw, that site has some nice dynamically generated graphs.

P.S. belated thank you to MiceAndMen for pointing out that my #3 possibility in my previous post (where the fuel might currently be) could eliminated from consideration. :)
 
  • #10,427
SteveElbows said:
Here is another photo from their adventure on the refuelling floor at reactor 4:

http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/news/110311/images/110701_1.jpg

Finally a view of the spent fuel pool that puts much in perspective, including the large round area that is partially separated from the rest of the pool. We can now see why it has a square round it on diagrams.

Yes it is a very useful photo. I'd love to see all the other photos they took on their little fact-finding mission to the 5th floor. Unfortunately we've gotten to the point - have been there for quite some time actually - where radiation isn't the only thing TEPCO is trying to contain.
 
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  • #10,428
SteveElbows said:
Here is another photo from their adventure on the refuelling floor at reactor 4:

http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/news/110311/images/110701_1.jpg

Finally a view of the spent fuel pool that puts much in perspective, including the large round area that is partially separated from the rest of the pool. We can now see why it has a square round it on diagrams.

Fuel cask drop. Like a drydock for fuel assembly shipping casks. With all due respect to TCups, his contention that there was a separate small pool for the processing of fuel for shipping, was incorrect. I miss TCups' contributions nonetheless.
 
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  • #10,429
SteveElbows said:
The caption isn't brilliant, but I have some sense of where this photo is taken, due to the yellow containment cap location which we know well.

Camera is pointing North, so equipment pit is in the far distance. Reactor well is just in front of cameraman, and cameraman could probably have shot the next photo of the reactor well without moving, just by pointing camera down and to the right somewhat. This may not be what actually happened, as reactor well photo may have ben taken from opposite side, I am just trying to illustrate what I believe to be the camera position relative to reactor well in the photo you mention.

That is more or less my take on it as well. We know the cap is on the west side of the floor, so the camera pointing north makes sense. The damaged roof at the north side also fits the external photos we've seen. The equipment pool is likely the farthest thing away in the picture, extending back towards the north wall (or what's left of the north wall), and the caption seems to say the opposite.
 
  • #10,430
joewein said:
I wish those two structures where shown on the floor map as the green one is.
It's hard to say what the whitish structures are. Obviously they've got cranes on them. My guess is they're special equipment needed for the core shroud replacement work, and wouldn't appear in the original blueprints at all. Regardless, they could have been drawn in overlaid on the floor plan, so I'm with you there. It would have made things clearer. I also have to go back and look at the pictures taken from the outside by the aerial survey and T-Hawk drones. I don't remember seeing the white bridge-crane support steel anywhere before these latest pictures.
 
  • #10,431
greenpharao said:
According to the gamma radiation readings (CAMS) of Unit 1's Drywell B there is still a lot of on/off activity happening. I'm no scientist, but I think this data-graph speaks for itselves:

Source:http://www.ianbradshaw.co.uk/multimedia/fukushima/tepco.html
----------------------------------------
Can anyone interpret these spikes?

If you look at the bottom of the second page you will see the CAMS data marked as "Instrument Failure" This is from the TEPCO Status page.

http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/nu/fukushima-np/f1/images/11070106_level_pr_data_1u-e.pdf
 
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  • #10,432
LabratSR said:
I haven't seen this posted yet, sorry if it has been.

English Version of Timeline Released.

http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/press/corp-com/release/betu11_e/images/110618e15.pdf

Ah its good to see the translation of that document, I've been looking forward to it.

I don't think it ends up adding a huge amount to the picture we have, but in a few places it helps a bit with some details, including a few that we have wondered about in this thread in the past.

For example, I know there was a discussion about some other document that mentioned valve opening operations at reactor 2 being hampered by the explosion at reactor 3. But we couldn't find the detail. Well, there is a bit more info about this in the freshly translated document you link to.I'm a bit too tired to highlight the specifics right now, maybe whoever else I was talking with about this in the past would like to do the honours.

Another thing it helps a little with is getting a bit more detail about radiation rises & conditions in the reactor, turbine & control room buildings early on, and what humans went into them to do crucial things at certain points.
 
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  • #10,433
http://www.nikkei.com/news/headline...19595E2E0E2E2E68DE2E0E2E5E0E2E3E39F9FE2E2E2E2 : Although the flow of water has been restricted to 3 ~ 9 m³/h lately, it is planned to increase it very soon - on 4 July or a few days sooner or later - in order to enhance the cooling of the reactors, when Tepco is confident that the decontamination system is stable enough. Minister Goshi Hosono confirmed that the goal is to run it with an 80% utilization rate (from the 1200 ton/day flow). The diagram in the article is a depiction of the roadmap, where the blue color represents Areva technology :

Step 2 : July-January : study and implementation of heat exchanger (grey) | decontamination, sludge storing and treatment (blue)

Middle term issues : January and later : removal of fuel (blue) | sludge treatment (blue)

Among the sensitive issues that could pay their toll on the plan to decontaminate all the 110,000 tons of contaminated water by the end of this year are the danger of leaks in the 4 km long pipes and how rainfalls may increase the quantity of contaminated water.

http://www.asahi.com/national/update/0702/TKY201107020452.html : From 2 July in the evening, the reliance on fresh water from the dam has been set to zero, which means increasing the use of water from the decontamination facility and limit the quantity of contaminated water.
 
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  • #10,434
SteveElbows said:
<..>there was a discussion about some other document that mentioned valve opening operations at reactor 2 being hampered by the explosion at reactor 3. But we couldn't find the detail. Well, there is a bit more info about this in the freshly translated document you link to. I'm a bit too tired to highlight the specifics right now, maybe whoever else I was talking with about this in the past would like to do the honours.

It was me you were talking with about it, and you are right there are pieces of the puzzle in this document that seems to shed more light. I haven't finished laying them as regards this particular aspect though :-) .. but will report back when and if a clear picture emerges.

I am very happy with this document, now translated to English, already on first reading it yielded me several Rosetta stone moments, and I am sure there is more to be gained from it.
 
  • #10,435
In what state is the Iodine-131 that is being detected 200 miles away in Gunma Prefecture ?

I would assume that the Japanese detector is measuring gaseous Iodine ?

How can there still be 'pockets' of I-131 gas remaining since March, which periodically are blown by the winds towards Gunma ?

Surely any I-131 would have been dispersed months ago ?

Is there some mechanism for the continued release of 'trapped' I-131, produced in March ?

[PLAIN]http://www.bfs.de/de/ion/imis/ctbto_aktivitaetskonzentrationen_jod.gif
 
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  • #10,436
Bodge said:
In what state is the Iodine-131 that is being detected 200 miles away in Gunma Prefecture?

In the form of tiny amounts of iodine salts in water (say, tiny water droplets in air). Really, really tiny amounts.

I would assume that the Japanese detector is measuring gaseous Iodine?

No.

How can there still be 'pockets' of I-131 gas remaining since March, which periodically are blown by the winds towards Gunma?

Iodine was everywhere around Fukushima, but since many its compounds are volatile or soluble, it disperses from there.

Surely any I-131 would have been dispersed months ago?

No, only noble gases disperse that quickly. Iodine is less mobile, Cesium is even less mobile.
 
  • #10,437
'Worriar' vacuum cleaning robot

Cleaning the floor of reactor unit 3

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnA4kHQ2xeA
 
  • #10,438
MiceAndMen said:
Fuel cask drop. Like a drydock for fuel assembly shipping casks. With all due respect to TCups, his contention that there was a separate small pool for the processing of fuel for shipping, was incorrect. I miss TCups' contributions nonetheless.

Thanks for confirming that. I had just asked my son to try and decipher the kanji characters and he concluded it was for moving fuel out of the pool, so it had to be for dry casks.

The two circles in the corners next to the reactor pit and next to the north-east and north-west corners of the SFP are marked as "skimmer surge tank hatch".
 
  • #10,439
Bodge said:
In what state is the Iodine-131 that is being detected 200 miles away in Gunma Prefecture ?

I would assume that the Japanese detector is measuring gaseous Iodine ?

I doubt much of any of the radioisotopes (with the exception of noble gases) is in elementary form. Iodine would be in the form of salts.

Bodge said:
How can there still be 'pockets' of I-131 gas remaining since March, which periodically are blown by the winds towards Gunma ?

Surely any I-131 would have been dispersed months ago ?

I am wondering if dust could be traveling with wind? Here in Tokyo we sometimes get parked cars covered in yellow dust from sand storms in China's Gobi desert!

This wouldn't have to be dust traveling all the way from Fukushima. A lot of fallout came down with rain between about March 14 and March 24. The rain ran off or dried up, leaving contaminated dust on the ground. Relatively high doses have been measured around drains by the side of the road where the water entered the canalization, as well as in sewage treatment plants for that reason.

Depending on how high above the ground the detector in Gunma is located, it may pick up some of that dust only when it temporarily gets whipped up by strong winds. The "official" radiation meter for Tokyo in Shinjuku is 18 m above ground level.

There may be other plausible explanations, this is just one I can think of.
 
  • #10,440
Iodine can be in elementary form.
 
  • #10,441
The brief history of this disaster is replete with avoiding all kinds of data, or at least avoiding sharing it with others. It's no surprise little is known, and speculations are rampant. Real data, modern measuring instruments, the internet, all kinds of things would improve knowledge at will.
 
  • #10,442
MiceAndMen said:
Fuel cask drop. Like a drydock for fuel assembly shipping casks. With all due respect to TCups, his contention that there was a separate small pool for the processing of fuel for shipping, was incorrect. I miss TCups' contributions nonetheless.

might that be the same structure that's sticking up above operating deck on unit 3 at 2:17 in this drone video? or am i seeing crane superstructure?
http://link.brightcove.com/services...E6wO3LtfIeoh6Zb7QdQVJE3mcx&bctid=921494038001

or http://bcove.me/dqtotqon takes one same place.
would put up a frame-grab if i had that skill.
 
  • #10,443
jim hardy said:
might that be the same structure that's sticking up above operating deck on unit 3 at 2:17 in this drone video? or am i seeing crane superstructure?
http://link.brightcove.com/services...E6wO3LtfIeoh6Zb7QdQVJE3mcx&bctid=921494038001

or http://bcove.me/dqtotqon takes one same place.

It's also http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dV0lRkbMAZM&feature=related", which I find more convenient for looking at still frames in Pause mode.

At 2:17 I just see a view of the east side of the building, with no particularly interesting details.

Did you mean to link to a different video, since this one shows a flyby of unit 4, not unit 3: For example, the reactor cap has been lifted off, with the bolts undone. At 2:49 you see one of the exterior wall segments standing behind the reactor cap.

In unit 3 shots you can usually barely see anything of the 5th floor because it's all covered under rubble. No walls were left standing above that floor level, even the frame collapsed everywhere but the west side.
 
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  • #10,444
I am sorry that on account of having been away I have been unable to help with translation of news reports, etc., lately. I just caught up on the more recent posts and noticed the debate concerning water pollution. Below are excerpts from a recent post that I find particullarly noteworthy (please correct me if I edited this statement in an inappropriate manner).

Concerning Chernobyl:
clancy688 said:
The Chernobyl number was calculated only for airborne releases. With the (in)famous IAEO iodine conversion method (the conversion factors they used can only be applied for airborne releases btw).

And, concerning Fukushima:
clancy688 said:
The official, often quoted number, will, even in the future, most likely only contain airborne released. Since the airborne release is finished, the real value of this number won't go up.
Note: the writer modified this later to the equivalent of "the value won't go up significantly".

Fukushima continued:
Water contamination is an entirely different thing. For example there's 140.000 TBq each of C134 and C137 loose in the basements. That's each twice the the size of the Chernobyl airborne release and half of a Chernobyl core's worth of C.
[...]
But water contamination DOESN'T count in official release numbers. Remember this.

I would like to have a second opinion on the assertion that "water contamination DOESN'T count in official release numbers", since it sounds preposterous to me, to say the least. Who is it who officially sanctions such blatant misrepresentation of the facts?

Thank you in advance.

PS: To avoid misunderstanding: I am not attacking the person who posted this; I want to confirm the information. Thank you.
 
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  • #10,445
ernal_student said:
I would like to have a second opinion on the assertion that "water contamination DOESN'T count in official release numbers", since it sounds preposterous to me, to say the least. Who is it who officially sanctions such blatant misrepresentation of the facts?

The way I read it contaminated water that is still contained in the buildings is - technically - not released, so there is no reason to count it as contamination outside of the NPP. TEPCO is purifying this water, so there is a chance it will be never released.

At least that's the plan. Wish them luck.
 
  • #10,446
[URL]http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/news/110311/images/110703_1t.jpg[/URL]
http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/news/110311/images/110703_1.jpg & http://sankei.jp.msn.com/region/news/110703/fks11070314050002-n1.htm : A hose carrying sea water for cooling at unit 5 had a crack and transformed itself into a fountain. It is only sea water, so there is no radiation. Without cooling the reactor temperature at unit 5 rises by 2.5°C per hour from the initial 41°C at 8 AM. It will reach 100°C within 22 hours, but Tepco is confident it can change the hose by that time.

http://mdn.mainichi.jp/mdnnews/news/20110703p2g00m0dm023000c.html Tepco has announced that the cooling of unit 5 has been resumed. http://www3.nhk.or.jp/news/html/20110703/t10013939101000.html When cooling was resumed at 1:40 PM, the reactor temperature had reached 47.7°C. Tepco sees the movement of the hose caused by the tides as the probable cause for the crack. Tepco is going to study solutions to prevent the same problem from occurring again.

http://mainichi.jp/select/weathernews/news/20110703ddm001040074000c.html As of 2 July 5 PM the quantity of decontaminated water produced by the water treatment facility had reached 11,170 m³, of which 3580 m³ are desalinated.

http://www.dailyindia.com/show/448693.php The brand new air cooling system at unit 3's spent fuel pool is working fine with a 40 °C temperature in the pool.
 
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  • #10,447
ernal_student said:
Note: the writer modified this later to the equivalent of "the value won't go up significantly".

And even that I modified to "Ups, my statement may have been bogus" - since the official report shows us that there were BIG C137-releases (10% of the whole number) even three weeks after the tsunam.

Regarding the "only airborne releases count":

Let's take a look at the first INES classification (which were also taken as the official release numbers and since then updated): http://www.nisa.meti.go.jp/english/files/en20110412-4.pdf
The first page states
"Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency (NISA) estimated the total amount of discharged radioactive materials from the reactors of Fukushima Dai-ichi NPS to the air"

Further let's take a look at the INES manual:
http://www-pub.iaea.org/mtcd/publications/pdf/ines-2009_web.pdf
On page 15 it says the following:
Two methods are given for assessing the radiological significance of a
release, depending on the origin of the release and hence the most appropriate
assumptions for assessing the equivalence of releases. If there is an atmospheric
release from a nuclear facility, such as a reactor or fuel cycle facility, Table 2
gives conversion factors for radiological equivalence to
131
I that should be used.
The actual activity of the isotope released should be multiplied by the factor
given in Table 2 and then compared with the values given in the definition of
each level. If several isotopes are released, the equivalent value for each should
be calculated and then summed (see examples 5–7). The derivation of these
factors is explained in Appendix I.
If the release occurs during the transport of radioactive material or from
the use of radiation sources, D2
values should be used. The D values are a level
of activity above which a source is considered to be ‘dangerous’ and has a
significant potential to cause severe deterministic effects if not managed safely
and securely. The D2
value is “the activity of a radionuclide in a source that, if
uncontrolled and dispersed, might result in an emergency that could reasonably
be expected to cause severe deterministic health effects” [5]. Appendix III lists
D2
values for a range of isotopes.

So, where's the problem now? The problem is that NSC, NISA, the government, etc. want everybody to understand the situation. Which includes laymen. You can't give laymen a table of released fission products and expect them to grasp how serious the release now was - since there are isotopes (like Xenon) which have minor impact and others (like Strontium) which are very dangerous.
It would be best to present the public ONE number - the higher the number, the bigger the environmental concern. That's easy to understand, for nearly everybody. For that purpose IAEO invented the I131-conversion. Take the whole release, convert it into one number. That's by no means a measure to cover up big accidents. It's an honest effort in making radiological consequences understandable for the greater public.
But now there's a problem with that iodine conversion. Apparently, the IAEO guys thought that there's only ONE major release path - the aerial release. There's no conversion chart for releases to the sea, only one for airborne releases. And so they only count the airborne numbers...
 
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  • #10,448
Borek said:
The way I read it contaminated water that is still contained in the buildings is - technically - not released, so there is no reason to count it as contamination outside of the NPP
OK, I understand that part. (^^) But some contaminated water has been released by TEPCO into the ocean, some water has run into the ocean on its own, some has seeped into the ground and more is expected to seep into the ground.

Is this not what the disucssion about building underground walls, etc., has been about?
Also the suggestion that solving the ground water contamination problem can wait until later. Why should such contamination not be accounted for? I feel confused.

TEPCO is purifying this water, so there is a chance it will be never released.
At least that's the plan. Wish them luck.
Yes, we all hope they will succeed.
 
  • #10,449
clancy688 said:
Apparently, the IAEO guys thought that there's only ONE major release path - the aerial release. There's no conversion chart for releases to the sea, only one for airborne releases. And so they only count the airborne numbers...
I think I understand what you have explained. So if the people who use the IAEO number clearly explain that it is only a minimum value because it does not account for the water pollution, I would find that acceptable - otherwise it would be cheating.
 

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