Fukushima Japan Earthquake: nuclear plants Fukushima part 2

AI Thread Summary
A magnitude-5.3 earthquake struck Fukushima, Japan, prompting concerns due to its proximity to the damaged nuclear power plant from the 2011 disaster. The U.S. Geological Survey reported the quake occurred at a depth of about 13 miles, but no tsunami warning was issued. Discussions in the forum highlighted ongoing issues with tank leaks at the plant, with TEPCO discovering loosened bolts and corrosion, complicating monitoring efforts. There are plans for fuel removal from Unit 4, but similar structures will be needed for Units 1 and 3 to ensure safe decontamination. The forum also addressed the need for improved groundwater management and the establishment of a specialist team to tackle contamination risks.
  • #851
Sotan said:
I totally agree nikkkom.

During my searches, however, I found numerous earlier version of the this document, for example this one of 2014:
http://www.meti.go.jp/earthquake/nuclear/pdf/141024/141024_01_003.pdf
(in Japanese)
That is almost the same content, so it seems to me like they are taking this matter rather slowly...

Is this perhaps the regulators method, 'study' the problem long enough and eventually everyone will accept the regulators preferred solution, which in this case is just dumping the tritium contaminated water?
 
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  • #852
That was what I thought too etudiant.
I even wrote, as a joke, "they look like they're waiting for tritium to decay" but right before posting it didn't look too funny.
But yes, tritium keeps decaying, and yes, it is a rare case, when the regulator says "why don't you take this easy way" and Tepco is stubborn.
 
  • #854
FYINuclear Street News

Tue, Mar 1 2016Kurion Completes Commissioning Of Modular Detritiation System

Kurion, Inc. said Monday that it had completed construction and acceptance testing of its prototype Modular Detritiation System and has initiated the system’s mission, which is to push the technology for additional performance through various experiments.

http://file:///C:/Users/Ozknox/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/02/clip_image002.jpg The MDS has completed an extensive cold and hot commissioning phase and is achieving its design goals based on scaling-up its proven bench scale system. This milestone comes less than six months after Kurion announced the development of the prototype system, delivering on patent-pending technology that removes tritium from contaminated water.

Kurion said its MDS is the world’s first solution to process large volumes of light water across a range of concentrations to remove tritium contamination. The system allows for the recycling or clean release of reactor cooling water for light water reactors.

The technology builds upon proven heavy water solutions and applies advances in throughput and efficiency for light water detritiation. Kurion’s MDS is a cost-effective solution to manage tritium and eliminate the release of tritiated water to the environment, the company said. The new system will use a full-scale catalytic exchange column, which is a central facet of Kurion’s technology.

Kurion is currently in discussions with a number of customers domestically and abroad to introduce its mature MDS technology to provide nuclear operators a new tool to manage tritium removal. Interest ranges across both operating and decommissioning plants.

David Carlson, Kurion's senior vide president of the Separation Business Unit, said tritium removal presents a unique cleanup challenge around the globe. “We are working with leading tritium experts and customers globally to achieve this success. We combine more than three decades of innovation and improved economics to provide cost-effective and environmentally friendly technology to remove tritium and improve the environment now and in the future,” he said.
 
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  • #855
The Kurion website claims each MDS module can process 7 tons of water/day, so TEPCO would need several dozen modules.
No insights as to industrially significant aspects including operating costs, reliability or maintenance requirements.
http://kurion.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/MDS-Brochure-for-WEB.pdf
 
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  • #856
The WSJ has a substantive, 5yrs out article (pay-walled) on the Fukushima clean-up operation. The authors, Negishi and Pfanner, are both Japanese based correspondents. The article has a graphic illustrating the overall ground water flow intercept plan, cites flow rate at 400 tons/day, total clean up cost at $100B.
 
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  • #857
  • #858
etudiant said:
Fukushima Diary ( http://fukushima-diary.com/2016/03/tepco-considering-discharging-tritium-to-the-pacific/ ) reports that Mr Matsuda, identified as the 'plant decommissioning chief' , has indicated that the tritium bearing water may need to be dumped.
In light of the earlier information from Sotan San, it seems the regulator view has prevailed. Not sure about the potential for the courts to block such a move.
When dumping tritiated water to the Pacific, I'm curious if it makes sense to pump it into the deep ocean where it would decay before reaching surface waters, rather than a surface dump to begin with.
 
  • #859
Following on to this idea, there is a big overhang of surplus tankers worth only scrap value.
Buy a few, gut them of any environmental hazards, fill their tanks with the tritium bearing water and tow them to their sinking site.
All the water in question should fit easily into a half dozen large tankers.
 
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  • #860
http://www.tepco.co.jp/nu/fukushima-np/handouts/2016/images1/handouts_160317_06-j.pdf
(in Japanese)

Tepco is starting, sometime this month, the muon measurement on Reactor 2.
Considering the placement of the measuring device, there will be a "dead angle" of about 8 degrees, meaning the lower part of the PCV will not be imaged; but the whole RPV region is probably going to show up.
Again because of the placement, the fuel in the reactor and the fuel in the SFP will not be superimposed in the resulting image (the SFP will not affect the main target of the measurement).
The measurement will take about 3 months, same as it took for R1.
 
  • #861
Sotan said:
http://www.tepco.co.jp/nu/fukushima-np/handouts/2016/images1/handouts_160317_06-j.pdf
(in Japanese)

Tepco is starting, sometime this month, the muon measurement on Reactor 2.
Considering the placement of the measuring device, there will be a "dead angle" of about 8 degrees, meaning the lower part of the PCV will not be imaged; but the whole RPV region is probably going to show up.
Again because of the placement, the fuel in the reactor and the fuel in the SFP will not be superimposed in the resulting image (the SFP will not affect the main target of the measurement).
The measurement will take about 3 months, same as it took for R1.

As with the ice wall, this rather gives the impression of 'going through the motions'.
I don't believe that anyone doubts that the three reactors all experienced complete core meltdowns. Moreover, all simulations agree that the molten material would breach the RPV in short order (minutes, not days). So there is a high likelihood that the new study will again find a 'significantly small' amount of nuclear material in the reactor 2 RPV, just as we all expect.
A more ambitious effort which would have required deeper placement of the muon probes might have located the core material. Yet TEPCO chose not to attempt that. Has there been any discussion as to why TEPCO is so incurious?
 
  • #862
There is another, a little more detailed document on this subject available on NRA site:
https://www.nsr.go.jp/data/000143713.pdf
(in Japanese)
First of all, in this matter (muon scanning) TEPCO works together with IRID and I suppose the decision making process is even more complicated than in other areas.
Also, the mentioned documents indicate that there are many issues to be considered when doing these measurements, especially related to the coordination with other works that are going on.
For example, the measurement that is about to start on Reactor 2 will be done with a new device, weighing only about 300 kg, which had to be rapidly developed because the much larger one used on Reactor 1 (20 tons) could not be placed near Reactor 2 due to the lack of a suitable crane.
Also, there are two types of muon scanning techniques; all mentioned until now are of the "transmission" type, but IRID has also been researching a "muon scattering" method, which makes use of two detector panels placed as to "sandwich" the targeted object (be it PCV or RPV). The transmission method has a resolution of about 1m; the scattering method has better resolution (~30 cm) but requires huge (10m/10m) panels which weigh 60 tons and more. They have been developing this method specifically for Reactor 2, where previous models indicated that there might be a significant amount of fuel left, but those models evolved and now the "significant" part is under question. So they are actually considering very carefully whether this more difficult scattering technique is really worth developing and applying. For now they decided to use the cheaper faster easier - and previously tested - transmission method.

I can't say anything / haven't read anything about why it was not possible to perhaps dig in the ground and place the muon detector in a lower position so it could better "catch" the location of the molten fuel. My feeling is that... if it was possible they would have done it. They need that information.
 
  • #863
Sotan said:
There is another, a little more detailed document on this subject available on NRA site:
https://www.nsr.go.jp/data/000143713.pdf
(in Japanese)
First of all, in this matter (muon scanning) TEPCO works together with IRID and I suppose the decision making process is even more complicated than in other areas.
Also, the mentioned documents indicate that there are many issues to be considered when doing these measurements, especially related to the coordination with other works that are going on.
For example, the measurement that is about to start on Reactor 2 will be done with a new device, weighing only about 300 kg, which had to be rapidly developed because the much larger one used on Reactor 1 (20 tons) could not be placed near Reactor 2 due to the lack of a suitable crane.
Also, there are two types of muon scanning techniques; all mentioned until now are of the "transmission" type, but IRID has also been researching a "muon scattering" method, which makes use of two detector panels placed as to "sandwich" the targeted object (be it PCV or RPV). The transmission method has a resolution of about 1m; the scattering method has better resolution (~30 cm) but requires huge (10m/10m) panels which weigh 60 tons and more. They have been developing this method specifically for Reactor 2, where previous models indicated that there might be a significant amount of fuel left, but those models evolved and now the "significant" part is under question. So they are actually considering very carefully whether this more difficult scattering technique is really worth developing and applying. For now they decided to use the cheaper faster easier - and previously tested - transmission method.

I can't say anything / haven't read anything about why it was not possible to perhaps dig in the ground and place the muon detector in a lower position so it could better "catch" the location of the molten fuel. My feeling is that... if it was possible they would have done it. They need that information.

Thank you for digging out this added information. It very much helps put things into context. Even if they just get it confirmed that the fuel has left the reactor 2 RPV, that will be useful. Knowing where the fuel is not should help with the water management, as why pour water into an empty RPV?

One guess is that digging in the sensors may have been an issue for the ground water management.
 
  • #864
etudiant said:
Even if they just get it confirmed that the fuel has left the reactor 2 RPV, that will be useful. Knowing where the fuel is not should help with the water management, as why pour water into an empty RPV?
It's not that easy. There are levels for the fuel relocation: it can be damaged but in place: it can be molten and sunk to the bottom of RPV: the RPV bottom can be broken and the fuel is (partially or entirely) down on the bottom of drywell - but some of the fuel (even if not detectible by this equipment) can be in its original place in any of these versions, so the cooling cannot not be stopped till more accurate measurements takes place (actually, till they got close visuals form RPV internals).
 
  • #865
Japanese TV stations report that Tepco has started today the soil freezing for creating the ice wall around Fukushima Daiichi plant, after finally receiving the approval from NRA yesterday March 30.
http://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/en/news/20160331_21/
 
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  • #867
Thank you, Sotan, for posting this.
It is the best status report that I've seen, better graphics and good discussions. It does give a sense of how much work Japan has been doing, without minimizing how much remains to be done.
 
  • #868
The plan to dissolve RPVs into rust with constant water injection for years on end is not progressing fast enough. I think they need to try to switch to acid solution. [Sarcasm]
 
  • #869
nikkkom said:
The plan to dissolve RPVs into rust with constant water injection for years on end is not progressing fast enough. I think they need to try to switch to acid solution. [Sarcasm]
Well, that's my idea.
As I know there is a way for uranium mining with pumping down acids... So why would it be sarcasm? [Sarcasm]
 
  • #870
Freezing the surroundings and leach mining the corium may eventually wind up getting used.
Certainly seems less implausible than some of the mechanical approaches that have been floated.
Plus TEPCO now has a lot of practical experience dealing with highly radioactive fluids.
 
  • #871
http://www.tepco.co.jp/nu/fukushima-np/handouts/2016/images1/handouts_160412_02-j.pdf
(in Japanese)
An April 12th report about the installation of supporting beams and then of shielding plates on the operating floor of Reactor 3 Building (this time in the area designated by "A".
Just one page, might not even be worth mentioning... except for that striking photo, with the rubble in front and the blue ocean as background.
 
  • #872
Sotan said:
except for that striking photo, with the rubble in front and the blue ocean as background.
If it is just for the photo:
160412_01.jpg
 
  • #873
I confess I didn't manage to get to that photo at that size/resolution :) Only much smaller ones.
Thank you Turi!
 
  • #874
Tepco is now publishing periodically reports on the progress of the ice wall operation.
Latest example is of 21 April (in Japanese):
http://www.tepco.co.jp/nu/fukushima-np/handouts/2016/images1/handouts_160421_04-j.pdf
Page numbered 1 shows the evolution of soil temperatures (in general, in operating areas they are approaching freezing point by now).
Pages 2-6 show the levels of underground water measured in various wells (these are indicated on Page 7).

I find suggestive and interesting the graphs given on pages 7-13. Each graph corresponds to a section of the contour of the ice wall; the color gives the temperature of the soil in that area - at various depths reaching OP -24m. More and more blue areas expected to appear on these graphs as the freezing progresses.
 
  • #876
Hi all. I mentioned some time ago that I was working on an update to the Safecast Report. I finished it a couple of weeks ago, actually, and it's available for download here:
http://blog.safecast.org/the-safecast-report/
Section 2.1 deals with issues at Daiichi. I cited some of Sotan's summaries on this forum of Japanese-language documents and provided links to them.
Any comments or criticisms will be welcome.
 
  • #878
http://photo.tepco.co.jp/library/160526_01/160526_06.pdf
Brief report (in Japanese) on the progress of the muon imaging experiment at Reactor 2

Page numbered as 1: The measurement has been going on since 22 March. This is an intermediary report.
Pages 2-3: Explanation of the measurement method and what kind of images can be obtained
Page 4: after an explanatory sketch and two "simulation" images of possible results (with/without nuclear fuel in the RPV), the image on the right side lower part is the actual result of muon observation measurements taken until 20 May.
Page 5: analysis of the obtained image. Darker spots mean more matter present. Structures such as thick concrete walls surrounding the RPV, and the spent fuel pool, are confirmed/observed. Not much else to be said from the data gathered until now, but data accumulates nicely.
Page 6: seems we are in the middle of the measurement, it is going to continue until mid-July.
Page 7: again enumerating the good points: structures identified, a shadow where the spent fuel pool is located, the core region is well within the frame of the measurement range. They appreciate that the method is useful and will consider using it on other units too.
Page 8: same image, with contrast increased. (I see strong shadows in the area of concrete walls and spent fuel pool, less strong in the core region, and much less color in the lower portion of the RPV.)
Page 9: the image even allows the identification of a "whiter" portion on it that corresponds to the expected effect of the geometry of an Earth embankment located to the West of the reactor.
Page 10: again, simulations and actual image and a discussion on the need to correct the image due to a tendency of the measurement method to make the center brighter and the margins darker.
Page 11: A reminder of the results obtained on Reactor 1.
 
  • #880
Sotan said:
http://photo.tepco.co.jp/library/160526_01/160526_06.pdf
Brief report (in Japanese) on the progress of the muon imaging experiment at Reactor 2

Here is the version in english:

http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/nu/fukushima-np/handouts/2016/images/handouts_160526_01-e.pdf

And here is the much older 2015 document that drew conclusions about unit 1 using that technique:

http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/nu/fukushima-np/handouts/2015/images/handouts_150319_01-e.pdf

Personally I think its an interesting technique but it seems hard to get the quality good enough to draw firm conclusions. I am interested as to why they felt able to draw unit 1 conclusions after not that long a period of testing, and they don't feel able to do the same with reactor 2. I suppose there is too much noise in vital regions of the image of unit 2 for them to tell much.
 
  • #882
SteveElbows said:
Personally I think its an interesting technique but it seems hard to get the quality good enough to draw firm conclusions. I am interested as to why they felt able to draw unit 1 conclusions after not that long a period of testing, and they don't feel able to do the same with reactor 2. I suppose there is too much noise in vital regions of the image of unit 2 for them to tell much.
I suppose there are many reasons that it could take longer to get good results. Possibly only a smaller detector could be fitted, the detection angle might be less favorable, a longer distance to the reactor's center etc. Possibly even less muons. Does anybody know whether muon influx varies greatly? The good thing is, a longer sampling time will give more results. And the interim results at least verify, that the system as such works.
 
  • #883
turi said:
Possibly even less muons. Does anybody know whether muon influx varies greatly?
After a bit of googling: There seems to be intraday and intra year variation in muon flux. It seems to be atmosphere temperature dependent: https://arxiv.org/pdf/1202.6403.pdf. Atmosphere temperature dependency does sound like atmosphere density dependency to me, which my non-physicist-brain accepts as reasonable.
Edit: Just found this: http://www.nature.com/articles/srep23054
 
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  • #884
  • #886
Going back to March 11th 2011 about 15:50 and the SBO of unit 1, is it a correct conclusion from current understanding that the four AC operated internal containment isolation valves of the isolation condenser (MO-1A, MO-1B, MO-4A and MO-4B) inside the PCV were partially closed (April 1, 2011 TEPCO survey) due to the fail safe function of the IC pipe rupture detection system?

Is it also correct, that their exact position has not been yet confirmed, but is thought to be tending more towards closed than open, as the rupture detection system was able to fully close the DC operated valve MO-2B of train B that started fully open and was never operated by the personnel?

It appears these valves could have been manually opened from inside the PCV, but this was never attempted. Also it appears opening of any other train B valves was never attempted either after automatic actuation of train B after the earthquake and subsequent remote manual closing of MO-3B to shut down train B with train A.

Considering this, what were the prospects of activating Unit 1 HPCI by opening its valves MO-3 and MO-8 locally and manually?

Has anyone done a scenario exercise to evaluate what would have been the fastest response with available resources to restore core cooling for unit 1?

Is it still the current prevailing view that unit 2 venting failed because the rupture disc opening pressure was not reached in containment?

Would it have been possible to vent through the SGTS instead, accepting potential damage to it in exchange of achieving a less than totally blocked venting path to the stack?

It appears there is some evidence to the theory that unit 3 venting directed hydrogen through unit 4 SGTS inside unit 4 RB and that the system maintained integrity in that flow direction.

If it is further assumed that also units 1 and 3 had leaks in the containment before achieving rupture disk opening pressure and successful venting, could earlier venting through their SGTS, or otherwise bypassing the high operating pressure rupture disk, have decreased hydrogen leakage from primary containment enough to potentially avoid the hydrogen explosions in units 1, 3 and 4?

Is it a correct characterisation of the extremely high pressure venting strategy, that it did not take into account severe accident conditions where failure to vent earlier would certainly result in radiologically hot leakage from the containment anyway?
 
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  • #887
Red_Blue said:
...stuff...
Well, I don't think that you will find many people who still keep in mind all the fine stuff what would be needed to answer your questions in detail, but think it's a safe guess that your real question is not about a wall of 'what if' scenarios?
 
  • #888
The what-if questions are very interesting from the human performance standpoint. In transportation safety investigations it's standard practise to try to evaluate what would have been the optimal human response and most of the time to also try to validate that performance model with human operator tests of surviving or similar equipment, high fidelity simulators or at least with computer simulations.

I have read a bit on the human performance of this event, including the short study by Man Cheol Kim. However, none of the studies or reports have really touched on alternative scenarios of how plant safety could have been restored and ensured. Considering that core damage at unit 1 started the domino effect which adversely affected the working conditions of the entire site, destroyed or set back many ongoing efforts for the other units as well as pulled available resources away from them, I think that is the most interesting unit to deal with.
 
  • #889
When a game is already lost not even a master can save it... That's why you won't really find any scenarios about saving the situation in Unit 1.

The lack (or inadequate amount?) of hydrogen recombiners, the wrong placement of reserve diesels, the lack of filtering on the vent stacks, the old design (IC instead of HPCI), the out of date design basis - that unit were lost in the moment the tsunami arrived.

To save the situation that unit should have been upgraded seriously - or just closed down long ago.

The performance of U2 and U3, that's a different matter. They might have been saved (to some extent).
 
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  • #890
There's an ORNL analysis for "Loss of all AC power" to a BWR that proved pretty accurate.

Basically ,
if they'd known they were about to lose all power,
getting the reactor to cold shut down beforehand would have been helpful
so that containment temperatures don't rise so quickly and melt the containment penetration seals
but, one does not flippantly violate his cooldown rate .

if there's a people-performance issue
i'd say it lies with the culture of 'responsible design organization' that handles "what if" analyses.
that exercise can degrade into a bureaucratic potato toss where the object becomes just to get the ball into the other guy's court .

When those records of old tidal waves going way up the hill
where people of the time had placed rocks to mark the events
came to light

somebody should have made TEPCO executives aware they had flock of a sitting ducks .
and put a submarine hull around the electrical rooms

my two cents
 
  • #891
Rive said:
The lack (or inadequate amount?) of hydrogen recombiners, the wrong placement of reserve diesels, the lack of filtering on the vent stacks, the old design (IC instead of HPCI), the out of date design basis - that unit were lost in the moment the tsunami arrived.
Unit 1 did have HPCI, it was lacking RCIC. However, there is no evidence of any attempt to start HPCI in unit 1 during the accident.

I'm not at all convinced IC was inherently a worse design than RCIC+HPCI for high pressure cooling. In fact, it is making a comeback in ESBWR. It appears more like there was over reliance on it working due to being a gravity flow system without the need of pumps. The efforts to confirm RCIC operation in unit 2 appear to have been much more aggressive and persistent than the equivalent efforts for unit 1 to confirm proper IC operation. Yet IC was the Plan A for unit 1, with ongoing attempts to replenish water to it from the DDFP.

I think the unanswered key questions are what kind of a flow rate and cooling efficiency the IC did achieve with the partially closed inner isolation valves. The outer valves were not opened for long enough to evaporate more than 20% of the train A shell side inventory.

Also, what would have happened, if
a) after the initial DC power loss to all instrumentation, crews had been sent to manually verify the outer valve positions and finding them closed, directed to open the train A outer valves,
b) another crew was sent outside the reactor building to verify with close and direct observation the steam venting rate from the RB west side steam vents,
c) considering that no operator present had experience operating the IC and that steam observations were difficult to quantify even if done directly (instead of from the other side of the building, looking from the emergency exit of the MCR to observe steam above the building with the vents not visible at all, as was actually done), more aggressive attempt to approach the IC room was done to read local flow rate and temperature gauges,
and
d) upon earlier realisation (as opposed to the actual 18:20 time frame) from the insufficient performance of the IC system, that the inner valves could have closed by the automatic isolation function, crews then sent to verify and manually open all of the internal and external isolation valves of both trains of IC?

TEPCO and NISA had spent quite a lot of effort to investigate whether IC was actually functioning without significant leakage after the earthquake and before the tsunami and their findings indicate that it was not only operable but operating, at the earliest point with both trains. So I fail to see any reason why it could not have been brought back to operation after the tsunami, had its failure been recognised and acted upon. It would not have required any power or compressed air sources. It appears the only resource required would have been people with the correct instructions and perhaps some PPE and tools.
 
  • #892
Red_Blue said:
I'm not at all convinced IC was inherently a worse design than
IC is not inherently worse, but that IC had inadequate water budget due an old design basis and miss of revision/upgrade. Even in best case (cooling at full throttle after the emergency trip, till power lasts) it would not last long enough.

But as you can see it's old stuff for me anyway (for example the miss of RCIC/HPCI).
 
  • #893
Rive said:
IC is not inherently worse, but that IC had inadequate water budget due an old design basis and miss of revision/upgrade. Even in best case (cooling at full throttle after the emergency trip, till power lasts) it would not last long enough.
They were lining up make up water to the IC pool from the fire protection system tank through the DDFP that was already running in idle. I believe there were 3 valves outside primary containment that would have needed manual opening for this to work. This plan was only changed to core injection after about 90 minutes when it was considered that the IC had probably failed. That plan B didn't actually go anywhere until several hours later, because there was no serious attempt to depressurise the RPV first and they essentially waited for the RPV to self depressurise. It appears it's still unclear how that RPV depressurisation happened, except that it wasn't through the IC. Most probably by core damage induced RPV breach of some sort.

I've read estimates of 4 to 8 hours of cooling capacity from the IC without any water replenishment. Also the fact that the core damage appears to have been delayed by a couple hours while the total IC water inventory only dropped about 13% seems to indicate that using all of it would probably have given several hours more time to deal with water replenishment.
 
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  • #894
Red_Blue said:
d) upon earlier realisation (as opposed to the actual 18:20 time frame) from the insufficient performance of the IC system, that the inner valves could have closed by the automatic isolation function, crews then sent to verify and manually open all of the internal and external isolation valves of both trains of IC?

How in those circumstances would people enter a PCV to open any valves inside it? (1) Is there a door which can be opened without electricity? (2) IIRC PCV is inerted, people who would try to enter it and work there for tens of minutes need to have something like oxygen tanks?

Not likely, considering that these people had difficulty simply going to the other side of the building exterior and assess IC steam generation...
 
  • #895
nikkkom said:
How in those circumstances would people enter a PCV to open any valves inside it? (1) Is there a door which can be opened without electricity? (2) IIRC PCV is inerted, people who would try to enter it and work there for tens of minutes need to have something like oxygen tanks?
They were using SCBA gear with 20 minute tanks and full body suits to enter other parts of the reactor buildings due to radiological conditions already after midnight of March 12th. That equipment must have been present onsite and not brought in, as such external supplies started to only arrive on the morning of 12th.

I would expect the PCV airlock to be manually operable as an option, suggesting otherwise doesn't make much sense. There were several missions during the accident to high radiation fields inside the reactor buildings to manually open valves. I don't see how the PCV would have been any different, especially considering that the dose rate there was under 10 mSv/h by CAMS before core uncovery and damage. I was also under the assumption that some of the missions actually went inside containment during the middle phases of the accident, but I would have to check to confirm that. At least the crews went to the torus rooms and several ground and 2nd floor rooms of the RBs.
 
  • #896
I'm not saying it is impossible, I'm saying it's hard to imagine workers to succeed in such a difficult task when they were confused, unprepared and untrained and as a result, failed many simpler tasks.

"They were using SCBA gear with 20 minute tanks and full body suits to enter other parts of the reactor buildings due to radiological conditions", yes. That work wasn't done in the conditions anywhere close to the conditions inside the PCV, which was at the moment a pitch-black hot cavern filled with N2, with unknown radiation levels.
 
  • #897
Red_Blue said:
I don't see how the PCV would have been any different,

What was temperature inside PCV after even an hour with no coolers running ? And "Heat Index" ?(i hate that term)
You can't cool by perspiration in whole body PC's.
I don't think they had dewpoint meters, don't recall seeing any such readings
but i can say from personal experience
when you enter a containment that's 115°F and dewpoint is greater than your body temperature because the seawater coming into your plant is 95°F
you won't stay long.

Dewpoint is more important than temperature .
When you come into a containment from 95°F outside and your glasses fog up and hot dew forms on your face, you have to concentrate your way out of shock , "What is it i came in here to do ?" .
Within minutes you are nauseous, dizzy, and headed back for the hatch. Radiation is the least of your worries.
They never had to carry me out but i came close.
Probably some sailors have tales they could share.

Before ascribing fault to humans for not going into PCV
do homework on what was likely the physiological conditions in there after loss of heat removal.

old jim

oops that attachment was an accident ,
 
  • #898
Red_Blue said:
They were using SCBA gear with 20 minute tanks and full body suits...
Erm. To fetch one Bruce Willis to save the world could had been even faster?

I had similar discussions with forummates on a different forum and it was really hard to stop the 'they could have chop that line with even an axe' kind of arguments. It's better not to start that line.

For the first unit, it was a beyond-design-basis accident, what's already a failure alone and basis of every failure what's followed.
 
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  • #899
jim hardy said:
getting the reactor to cold shut down beforehand would have been helpful
The tsunami hit 41 minutes after the quake. How could a cold shut down have been acquired under those circumstances?
 
  • #900
Rive said:
Erm. To fetch one Bruce Willis to save the world could had been even faster?

I had similar discussions with forummates on a different forum and it was really hard to stop the 'they could have chop that line with even an axe' kind of arguments. It's better not to start that line.
There's no need to bring in straw men in the form of fictional action heroes. We already know the plant operators did many unconventional, hazardous and even unprecedented things when they had adapted to the realisation that they were managing a very severe accident with life threatening consequences. Unfortunately that adaptation took about a day and night, even though the factors forcing that adaptation (almost total loss of remote control and monitoring) were present immediately after the tsunami.

Rive said:
For the first unit, it was a beyond-design-basis accident, what's already a failure alone and basis of every failure what's followed.
If you are willing to stifle discussions about the proper response to a beyond design basis accident, then you are really suggesting that you can always design for every accident scenario, which has proven time and time again unfeasible. It's interesting to compare the response in Fukushima 2 that suffered from the same earthquake and tsunami, but maintained effective reactor cooling during the same time period as Fukushima 1 had core melts and hydrogen explosions. The designs and plant systems were hardly different. The significant difference appeared to be that F-2 operators never lost control of their reactors, while F-1 operators never really regained it after the tsunami. It also appears that the most critical factor in losing control was not the loss of control systems, but the loss of incoming information about plant status and subsequent breakdown in effective decission making.
 

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