Particle motion + electric field when voltage varies

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Homework Help Overview

The discussion revolves around the motion of electrons in an electric field created by two parallel plates with a varying potential difference. The original poster presents a scenario involving the trajectory of electrons entering the system at an angle and seeks to understand how changes in voltage affect their impact position on a fluorescent screen.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Mathematical reasoning, Assumption checking

Approaches and Questions Raised

  • The original poster attempts to derive an equation for the position of electrons as a function of voltage and questions whether their approach to finding the derivative with respect to voltage is appropriate. Some participants point out errors in the derivation and suggest corrections.

Discussion Status

Participants are actively engaging in correcting derivations and exploring the implications of the derived equations. There is a focus on ensuring the mathematical expressions accurately represent the physical scenario. Some guidance has been offered regarding simplifications and alternative approaches to the problem.

Contextual Notes

There are mentions of potential misunderstandings regarding terminology, such as "cuatic effects" versus "quantum effects," and the original poster is encouraged to consider different methods of analysis, such as gravitational trajectory equations.

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Homework Statement


Two parallel plates located at a distance "L" from each other they maintain a potential difference "V" because of a battery (as shown in the picture). Through a small hole, made in bottom plate, electrons get into system (with mass "m" and charge "-e"), with velocity "v" and forming a θ angle with the perpendicular direction of the plate. A flourescent screen at the top plate allows to determine where the electrons impact.

If there is a small change dV at the potential difference between the plates. Where and how much the position where electrons impact varies? (Do not matter about relativism effects and cuatic effects). Make a scheme about the dependency of that variation with the velocity v and the angle θ.
Picture.PNG


Dos placas paralelas situadas a distancia L una de la otra, se mantienen a una diferencia de potencial V por medio de una batería, como muestra la figura. Por un pequeño orificio practicado en la placa de abajo ingresan electrones (de masa m y carga -e), con una velocidad v y formando un angulo θ con la dirección perpendicular a la placa. Una pantalla fluorescente en la placa de arriba permite determinar dónde inciden los electrones.
Si se produce un pequeño cambio dV en la diferencia de potencial entre las placas, ¿Cómo y cuanto varía la posición donde inciden los electones? (despreciar efectos relativistas y cuánticos). Realizar un grafico esquematico que ilustre la dependencia de esta variación con la velocidad v y el angulo θ
problem.png

Homework Equations

The Attempt at a Solution


Energy analisis:

The initial energy and the final energy have to be the same.
E_{f}=E{i}
E_{kf}=E_{ki}+U_{e}
\frac12 \cdot m \cdot v_{f}^{2}=\frac12 \cdot m \cdot v_{i}^{2}+F_{e} \cdot L
v_{f}=\sqrt{ v_{i}^{2}+ \frac{2 \cdot F_{e} \cdot L}{m}}\qquad \text{(1)}

Motion analisis:

\Sigma F_{x}=0
v_{x}=constant
\Sigma F_{y}=m \cdot \vec{a}

So we have a constant uniform motion in x-axis and a constant aceleration in y-axis. I can find the final velocity in y-axis using Pythagorean teorem
pitagoras.png

v_{f}^2=v_x^2 + v_{fy}^2
v_{fy}=\sqrt{v_f^2 - v_x^2}

In y-axis aceleration is constant so I can do:
V_{m}=\frac{v_{fy}+v_{iy}}{2}
V_{m}=\frac{\Delta y}{\Delta t}
\Delta t=\frac{2 \Delta y}{v_{fy}+v_{iy}} \qquad \text{(2)}
This is the time that it takes to the particle in order to reach the top plate. I can use \Delta t to get x-axis distance.
v_x=\frac{\Delta x}{\Delta t}
x=v_x \cdot \Delta t

Replacing with (2):
x=v_x \cdot \frac{2 \Delta y}{v_{fy}+v_{iy}}
\Delta y=L
v_x=\sin \theta \cdot v_i
x=\frac{2 \cdot L \cdot v_i \cdot \sin \theta}{\sqrt{v_f^2-v_x^2}+v_i \cdot \cos \theta}

Replacing vf with (1) and replacing vx:
Edit: I've made a mistake replacing vx^2
x=\frac{2 \cdot L \cdot v_i \cdot \sin \theta}{\sqrt{v_i^2+\frac{2 \cdot F_e \cdot L}{m}-\sin^2 \theta \cdot v_f^2}+v_i \cdot \cos \theta}

x=\frac{2 \cdot L \cdot v_i \cdot \sin \theta}{\sqrt{v_i^2+\frac{2 \cdot F_e \cdot L}{m}-\sin^2 \theta \cdot \left(v_i^2+\frac{2 \cdot F_e \cdot L}{m} \right)}+v_i \cdot \cos \theta}
x=\frac{2 \cdot L \cdot v_i \cdot \sin \theta}{\sqrt{v_i^2+\frac{2 \cdot F_e \cdot L}{m}-\sin^2 \theta \cdot v_i^2 + \sin^2 \theta \cdot \frac{2 \cdot F_e \cdot L}{m}}+v_i \cdot \cos \theta}
x=\frac{2 \cdot L \cdot v_i \cdot \sin \theta}{\sqrt{v_i^2(1- \sin^2 \theta) +\frac{2 \cdot F_e \cdot L}{m}(1+\sin^2 \theta)}+ \cos \theta \cdot v_i}

x=\frac{2 \cdot L \cdot v_i \cdot \sin \theta}{\sqrt{v_i^2+\frac{2 \cdot F_e \cdot L}{m}-\sin^2 \theta \cdot v_i^2}+v_i \cdot \cos \theta}
x=\frac{2 \cdot L \cdot v_i \cdot \sin \theta}{\sqrt{v_i^2 \left( 1+ \frac{2 \cdot F_e \cdot L}{m \cdot v_i^2}-\sin^2 \theta \right) }+v_i \cdot \cos \theta}
x=\frac{2 \cdot L \cdot v_i \cdot \sin \theta}{v_i \sqrt{ 1+ \frac{2 \cdot F_e \cdot L}{m \cdot v_i^2}-\sin^2 \theta }+v_i \cdot \cos \theta}
x=\frac{2 \cdot L \cdot v_i \cdot \sin \theta}{v_i \left( \sqrt{ 1+ \frac{2 \cdot F_e \cdot L}{m \cdot v_i^2}-\sin^2 \theta }+ \cos \theta \right)}
x=\frac{2 \cdot L \cdot \sin \theta}{\sqrt{ 1+ \frac{2 \cdot F_e \cdot L}{m \cdot v_i^2}-\sin^2 \theta }+ \cos \theta}

Finally I know that:
V=\frac{U_e}{q}=\frac{F_e \cdot L}{q}
F_e \cdot L=V \cdot q

x=\frac{2 \cdot L \cdot \sin \theta}{ \sqrt{ 1+ \frac{2 \cdot V \cdot q}{m \cdot v_i^2}-\sin^2 \theta }+ \cos \theta}

Now I've an equation which gives me the position as function of voltage. Can I do \frac{\partial x}{\partial V} in order to obtain how much the position varies in relation with small variation \partial V?

Am I doing it in a adequated way (I think that it's a really ugly equation)? Or should I consider other factors?
 

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Last edited:
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Your idea is correct. However, you have some errors in your derivation of ##x(V)##. For example, you have used ##v_x^2 = v_f^2 \sin^2\theta## rather than ##v_x^2 = v_i^2 \sin^2\theta##.
 
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Thank you very much @Orodruin !
I corrected it.
Then I've to do \frac{\partial x}{\partial V}.
x(V)=\frac{2 \cdot L \cdot \sin \theta}{ \sqrt{ 1+ \frac{2 \cdot V \cdot q}{m \cdot v_i^2}-\sin^2 \theta }+ \cos \theta}
\frac{\partial x}{\partial V} = \frac{ \frac{-2L \sin \theta \cdot \frac{2q}{m \cdot v_i^2} }{2 \sqrt{1+\frac{2Vq}{m \cdot v_i^2}-\sin^2 \theta}} }{ \left( \cos \theta + \sqrt{1+\frac{2Vq}{m \cdot v_i^2} - \sin^2 \theta } \right)^2 }
\frac{\partial x}{\partial V} = \frac{ -2Lq \sin \theta }{ m \cdot v_i^2 \left( \cos \theta + \sqrt{1+\frac{2Vq}{m \cdot v_i^2}-\sin^2 \theta } \right) ^2 \sqrt{ 1+\frac{2Vq}{m \cdot v_i^2}-\sin^2 \theta } }

Does that equation answers the question about "Where and how much the position where electrons impact varies" or should I find something else?
 
Last edited:
RmsAdd said:
cuatic effects
For your information, the English is "quantum effects".
I would have treated it like a gravitational trajectory question, using the SUVAT equations, but it's probably no simpler.
You could simplify your final expression a bit by collapsing 1-sin2 to cos2 and creating a name for the group ##\frac{2q}{mv_i^2}##, which occurs in three places.
 
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