Problem with signs in the Lorentz Transformation equations

In summary: I was just checking to see if there were any glaring holes in my argument, because the proof seemed surprisingly simple. But, I think I have convinced myself that it is indeed correct. In summary, the Galilean transformations form a group as the velocities of ##S'## relative to ##S## serve as the group elements. The group is closed, associative, has an identity element, and each element has an inverse. Furthermore, the group is commutative, proving that the Galilean transformations form an Abelian group.
  • #1
spaghetti3451
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Homework Statement



The following is Exercise 2.1 from from Ray d'Inverno's 'Introducing Einstein's Relativity.'

(a) Write down the Galilean transformation from observer ##S## to observer ##S'##, where ##S'## has velocity ##v_1## relative to ##S##.
(b) Find the transformation from ##S'## to ##S## and state in simple terms how the transformations are related.
(c) Write down the Galilean transformation from ##S'## to ##S''##, where ##S''## has velocity ##v_2## relative to ##S'##.
(d) Find the transformation from ##S## to ##S''##.
(e) Prove that the Gailiean transformations form an Abelian (commutative) group.

2. Homework Equations

3. The Attempt at a Solution


(a) My answer is $$x' = x - v_1 t,\ y'=y,\ z'=z,\ t'=t,$$ which matches with the textbook answer. So, no problem here.
(b) My answer is $$x = x' + v_1 t,\ y=y',\ z=z',\ t=t',$$ which again matches with the textbook answer. So, no problem here.
(c) My answer is $$x''=x'- v_2 t,\ y''=y',\ z''=z',\ t''=t',$$ but the textbook answer is $$x''=x'+ v_2 t,\ y''=y',\ z''=z',\ t''=t'.$$
(d) My answer is $$x''=x- ( v_ 1 + v_2 ) t,\ y''=y,\ z''=z,\ t''=t,$$ but the textbook answer is $$x''=x+ ( v_ 1 + v_2 ) t,\ y''=y,\ z''=z,\ t''=t.$$

Can someone please tell me if my answers are wrong, or if the textbook answers are wrong?
 
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  • #2
They way you put it the book is wrong and you are right.

It's a small miracle that you agree in a) and b) :wink: since both you and the book assume ##v_1## is along the x-axis of ##S## and ##S'##, and that both clocks and coordinate systems coincide at t = 0.
 
  • #3
Alright, then, here's my attempt to part (e) of the question.The group elements of the Galilean transformations are the velocities ##v## of ##S'## relative to ##S##.

Consider the boost from ##S## to ##S'##, and then the boost from ##S'## to ##S''##, so that ##x''=x- ( v_ 1 + v_2 ) t,## so that ##v = v_1 + v_2##. So, the group of Galilean transformations is closed.

Consider the boost from ##S## to ##S''##, and then the boost from ##S''## to ##S'''##, so that ##x''' = x'' - v_3 t = x - (v_1 + v_2 + v_3) t##. Also, consider the boost from ##S## to ##S'##, and then the boost from ##S'## to ##S'''##, so that ##x''' = x' - (v_2 + v_3) t = x - (v_1 + v_2 + v_3) t##. So, the group multiplication operation is associative.

##v = 0## is the identity element, because it transforms ##(x, y, z, t)## into ##(x, y, z, t)##.

##-v## is the inverse of ##v##, because the consecutive application of ##v## and ##-v## transforms ##(x, y, z, t)## into ##(x, y, z, t)##.

The above four properties prove that the Galilean transformations form a group.

Furthermore, consider a boost by velocity ##v_1##, and then a boost by velocity ##v_2##, so that ##x''' = x'' - v_2 t = (x' - v_1 t) - v_2 t = x' - (v_1 + v_2) t##. Also, consider a boost by velocity ##v_2##, and then a boost by velocity ##v_1##, so that ##x''' = x'' - v_1 t = (x' - v_2 t) - v_1 t = x' - (v_1 + v_2) t##. So, the group of Galilean transformations is Abelian (commutative).Do you think my proof is correct?
 
  • #4
Does it help if I say yes ? You really want to convince yourself, and it shouldn't make a difference if I say "well, it looks good to me !" (which I am perfectly happy to do, even if it probably is against PF rules ("we look at them more as guidelines :wink: ")
 
  • #5
Thank you!
 

1. What is the Lorentz Transformation?

The Lorentz Transformation is a set of equations developed by physicist Hendrik Lorentz in the late 19th century to describe the relationship between space and time in Einstein's Theory of Special Relativity. It allows for the conversion of measurements between two different reference frames moving at constant velocities relative to each other.

2. What is the problem with signs in the Lorentz Transformation equations?

The Lorentz Transformation equations involve the use of the square root function, which can result in both positive and negative solutions. This can lead to confusion and errors in calculations, especially when dealing with high speeds or complex scenarios.

3. How can the sign problem be resolved in the Lorentz Transformation equations?

The sign problem can be resolved by using the proper conventions and understanding the physical meaning behind the equations. In some cases, the negative solution may be discarded if it does not make physical sense, while in others, it may be necessary to consider both positive and negative solutions and choose the one that is appropriate for the given scenario.

4. Are there any alternative equations that do not have a sign problem in the Lorentz Transformation?

Yes, there are alternative equations such as the Minkowski diagram and the hyperbolic trigonometric functions that do not have a sign problem. These equations are often used in different forms of the Lorentz Transformation, such as the rapidity form, which avoids the use of square roots altogether.

5. How important is it to consider the sign problem in the Lorentz Transformation equations?

The sign problem is crucial in accurately understanding and applying the Lorentz Transformation equations. It is essential to carefully consider the signs of the solutions to ensure that the results are physically meaningful and consistent with the principles of Special Relativity. Failure to do so can lead to incorrect calculations and interpretations.

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