Adding a total derivative to the Lagrangian

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the relationship between two Lagrangians in the context of Maxwell's field theory in a vacuum. Participants explore whether the difference between the two Lagrangians can be expressed as a total derivative and how to identify the vector that represents this total derivative.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents two Lagrangians, \(\mathcal{L}_1\) and \(\mathcal{L}_2\), and asserts they should differ only by a total derivative.
  • Another participant suggests that the second term of \(\mathcal{L}_1\) can be shown to equal \(\mathcal{L}_2\) plus a divergence term, claiming this is trivial.
  • A different participant expresses difficulty in understanding the triviality of the claim and requests a detailed explanation.
  • One participant proposes using the Lorentz gauge to demonstrate the relationship between the two Lagrangians, suggesting that this approach will show they differ by a total derivative term.
  • Another participant counters that imposing gauge conditions on the Lagrangian is not permissible, indicating a disagreement on the approach.
  • A mathematical expression is provided, but its relevance to the discussion remains unclear.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the triviality of demonstrating the relationship between the two Lagrangians. There are competing views on the appropriateness of using gauge conditions in this context.

Contextual Notes

The discussion includes unresolved mathematical steps and assumptions regarding the treatment of gauge conditions and total derivatives.

JPaquim
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I recently posted another thread on the General Physics sub forum, but didn't get as much feedback as I was hoping for, regarding this issue. Let's say I have two Lagrangians:
$$ \mathcal{L}_1 = -\frac{1}{2}(\partial_\mu A_\nu)(\partial^\mu A^\nu) + \frac{1}{2}(\partial_\mu A^\mu)^2 $$
$$ \mathcal{L}_2 = -\frac{1}{2}(\partial_\mu A_\nu)(\partial^\mu A^\nu) + \frac{1}{2}(\partial_\nu A_\mu)(\partial^\mu A^\nu) $$
They refer to the same Maxwell in a vacuum field theory, so they give rise to the same equations of motion. As such they should differ only by a total derivative. I can test if something is a total derivative by plugging it into the Euler-Lagrange equations, and see if I get something that can be reduced to 0\,=\,0. In this case, there should be some vector B^\mu such that the difference between the two Lagrangians, is equal to \partial_\mu B^\mu, right? My question is, how can you find B^\mu (up to the addition of a divergence-less term)?
 
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Since the first 2 terms are identical, you need to show that the second term of L1 = L2 + 4 div, thing which I find trivial.
 
dextercioby said:
Since the first 2 terms are identical, you need to show that the second term of L1 = L2 + 4 div, thing which I find trivial.

I'm sorry, but I'm just not finding it trivial. Could you write it out for me, please?
 
or you can just try the Lorentz gauge... for the 1st
For the second you just need to do a partial derivative, and use again the Lorentz gauge...
You'll have the same lagrangians, differing by a total derivative term
 
Last edited:
ChrisVer said:
or you can just try the Lorentz gauge...
No, you cannot impose gauge conditions on the Lagrangian!

I'm sorry, but I'm just not finding it trivial. Could you write it out for me, please?

Aμ,νAν,μ = (Aμ,νAν) - Aμ,νμAν = (Aν,μAμ) - Aμ,νμAν = (Aν,μAμ - Aμ,μAν) + Aμ,μAν,ν
 
Last edited:

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