Osama Bin Laden killed by US in Pakistan

  • #376
AlephZero
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I wonder of you meant to imply by analogy that the beliefs behind the Islam reaction to the West is anywhere near as simplistic as that one summarized paragraph. Do you really think that they have no moral compass except their own salvation?
If you look at the total volume of activity, I'm not sure that "reaction to the West" is an good description of the totality what is gong on. It might be better to categorize it as one relatively small sect's "reaction to everything and everybody apart from themselves", including the rest of Islam. But, "Why do you rob banks? Because that's where the money is. Why do you destroy the WTC? Because that's where the publicity is."

You could argue that none of the Abrahamic religions have any moral compass except the salvation of their believers. If you genuinely believe that everything you will experience, for an infinite period of time, is under the direct control of an omniscient and omniponent being, that doesn't leave much wriggle-room for anything apart from "salvation". You do whatever you think your god wants you to do, unless (Ref: the Bible, Psalm 14) you are a fool.

Making relative value judgements about moral compasses is dangerous here, considering the the links between a former US president and astrology, or serious presidental candidates and the church of the LDS.
 
  • #377
Amp1
I think it was Nancy who used astrologists. I forgot who the Mormon official is.
 
  • #378
DaveC426913
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You could argue that none of the Abrahamic religions have any moral compass except the salvation of their believers. If you genuinely believe that everything you will experience, for an infinite period of time, is under the direct control of an omniscient and omniponent being, that doesn't leave much wriggle-room for anything apart from "salvation". You do whatever you think your god wants you to do, unless (Ref: the Bible, Psalm 14) you are a fool.
Wow. To argue thus would be to, in a single fell swoop, dismiss the entire non-atheist population of the world (including all Christianity) as zombies who, to a greater or lesser degree, simply do their God's bidding. And then dismiss that following of a God as a lack of a moral compass.

You might as well say "Every human is a mindless zombie, blindly following this silly thing called their morals. How can they possibly do right by their fellow humans when they're all caught up trying to distinguish Right from Wrong?"

Yours has got to be the most outrageous statement I have ever witnessed in seven years on PF.
 
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  • #379
AlephZero
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Wow. To argue thus would be to, in a single fell swoop, dismiss the entire non-atheist population of the world (including all Christianity) as zombies who, to a greater or lesser degree, simply do their God's bidding.
You are making the false dichotomy of equating the dogma of a religion (as defined by its Holy Books) with how most of the people who self-identify as "believing in it" relate to the dogma.

Most of them tend to ignore the stuff in the Holy Books they don't like, and think for themselves to fill in the gaps. It's the minority who don't do that who tend to cause trouble, expecially when a smart and charismatic leader shows up.

There is a sliding scale here from Wahabi to Sunni in Islam, or Ultra-Orthodox to Reformed in Judaism. Insert your own Christian examples. It's sometimes said (only partly in jest) that the greatest strength of the Church of England is that you can belong to it without believing in anything in particlar, or even in anything at all.

And then dismiss that following of a God as a lack of a moral compass.
A useful moral compass is not one that is stuck permanently in one direction, even if that direction points straight to "heaven".
 
  • #380
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If you look at the total volume of activity, I'm not sure that "reaction to the West" is an good description of the totality what is gong on. It might be better to categorize it as one relatively small sect's "reaction to everything and everybody apart from themselves", including the rest of Islam. But, "Why do you rob banks? Because that's where the money is. Why do you destroy the WTC? Because that's where the publicity is."
i don't think the trade tower was that simple. it was a center of trading. it wasn't just a building with a bunch of people in it, but in a very real way a tool of empire. also, the pentagon was hit, and the capitol was targeted. 9/11 overall was a direct attack on the US government.
 
  • #381
AlephZero
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I think it was Nancy who used astrologists.
And most smart men have figured out that the way to have a quiet life is go along with what your wife tells you to do :smile:

I forgot who the Mormon official is.
Google "Romney Mormon".
 
  • #382
DaveC426913
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You are making the false dichotomy of equating the dogma of a religion (as defined by its Holy Books) with how most of the people who self-identify as "believing in it" relate to the dogma.
You were the one that spoke unilateally about an family of religions.

No false dichotomy over here; you made a ridiculous claim (even if you tried worm out of it with 'one could argue...').
 
  • #383
DaveC426913
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This has gotten into a discussion of the merits of religions. That is forbidden here.

We can still talk about the people involved, we simply must assume their beliefs to be valid for the sake of argument. Aleph, to continue in the discussion, you will have to take as granted that the people have valid reasons for their beliefs that are beyond our pervue to question. I'm going to request that this be enforced.
 
  • #384
AlephZero
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i don't think the trade tower was that simple. it was a center of trading. it wasn't just a building with a bunch of people in it, but in a very real way a tool of empire. also, the pentagon was hit, and the capitol was targeted. 9/11 overall was a direct attack on the US government.
Yes, but the point was not the attack itself, but the reaction to it.

The reaction was not caused the people who hijkacked the planes. It was caused by the attitude of the nation that was attacked.

Check out Obama's speech when OBL was killed, and count the number of times the word "nation" occurs. It's etched into the American psyche. You might not realize how much different that is from the way most of the world thinkgs, because that's what you have grown up with all your life. But hey, I don't really know (or care) whether I'm supposed to describe myself as English, or British, or European, or what. It's just not important to me.

Compare the reaction from 9/11 to the bombings in London, Madrid, Bali, India, etc. Would it have been so "effective" to wipe out a tower block in the London financial district and target the Houses of Parliament? Of course not. The Brits have had religiously motivated terrorist attacks on their territory for at least 400 years already. Compared with the damage in WWII (and people who lived through that are still alive), one collapsed tower block is nothing much...
 
  • #385
Evo
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Closed until I have time to catch up on this thread.
 

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