Automotive Race car suspension Class

AI Thread Summary
The discussion emphasizes the importance of understanding race car suspension dynamics to improve handling and performance. Key issues include the car's tendency to push while entering corners and being loose upon exit, which can be addressed by adjusting downforce and the third link location. The roll center and instant center are critical factors in suspension design, affecting tire loading and grip during cornering. The conversation also highlights the significance of software tools like Suspension Analyzer for optimizing suspension geometry. Overall, proper suspension setup is essential for maximizing tire contact and achieving competitive performance on the track.
  • #1,151
From strictly a bench racer perspective, here you go. Figure one horsepower per cubic inch. This is very easy to attain these days. On some cases we go 2 HP per cube but we can stay with 1 hp per cube.

Next we sue the racers rule of thumb that for every 10 pounds you remove from the car you “ add “ one horsepower. So in theory the car that weighs 125 pounds more would need an additional 12.5 horsepower to be even.
The 360 CID car would have 91.5 more horsepower to race the lighter car.
Early Southern California Timing Assc. veteran Stroker Mcgurk –” if some’s good, and more is better, then too much is just enough" he also said
..there is no substitute for Cubic Inches”

hrdp_9809_09_o-stroker_McGurk_cartoon_series-april_1953.jpg
 
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  • #1,152
Thanks for the input Ranger Mike! How should the front and rear roll centers compare? My assumption is that the rear would be higher but is there a way of deciding that? Should I also try to match the lateral front and rear?
 
  • #1,153
read
Roll Center heights and offsets and why
page 12 post #229
i would go with ft rc offset starting at 3" and try to center the rear RC. don't worry about the rear ht being taller than the ft.

I like a low front roll center mainly because it has better camber curve..less change and I think it is all about contract patch.
As in life, there are exception and the exception to low RC is street stock class where you must race SPEC tires. You can not change the A-Arms usually and so are limited on changing the RC offset to get any down force on the hard spec tires. So you have to raise the RC to get some side bite in these hard sidewall tires.
Yes, you have a shorter moment arm between the Rc and COG but the angle of RC to the tire contact patch is a lot better than stock. Some stock chassis have RC at an inch above the pavement..
You will just about always have rear RC higher than the front and this is ok too
 
  • #1,154
With a straight front axle camber change shouldn't be a issue for me. I want to thank you again. This forum has opened up a whole new world for me!
 
  • #1,155
Ranger Mike I have been considering running a lift bar instead of a 3rd link. I want to use springs top and bottom in the front to control the bar during braking and acceleration. Thoughts?
 
  • #1,156
Sorry Mike I think I found my answer in #954 lol
 
  • #1,157
Good Morning All! I just finished measuring my front roll center after making a new panhard bar. I'm at 2 inches to the right. Not where I wanted to be but much better than where I started. I have a little more work to do on the front end and then I can put the chassis on the ground and get a rough idea of where the height will be.
 
  • #1,158
vinny, just an educated guess..nothing concrete but you may be ok at 2 inch since the panhard bar angle can be tweeked big time. Look at the angle form the rc to the tire contact patch and study up on how changing the panhard bar angle will effect handling. ifin you get too clise the 45 degree angle to contact patch you may start carrying the left front tire..looks great but racing a three legged stool will wear out the tires quicker..but boy does it look ' hot dog"
 
  • #1,159
Is there truth to the theory if you angle on side of the panhard bar down that side will be forced down?
 
  • #1,160
Ranger Mike,
I talked to the people at perf trends and they told me they are 2 months from a version of the software that will work with the straight front axle. Bob Bolles told me his will work with it so that will be my next major purchase.
 
  • #1,161
on paved track cars the panhard bar is usually mounted to the axle on the left side of center line and to chassis on the right side. Longer is better and means less RC movement during total chassis roll. When the p-bar is “ level” both tires will carry equal load caused by chassis roll. if we munt the p-bar on chassis on left side then to the axle on the right side we create too much traction and will push. The angle the bar slants will load that side more and take away from the other side and may lift the left front tire. Just draw out the force vectors and look at the angles. The p-bar mount on the right side chassis is pulling the axle during roll. If the p-bar is level then both tires will be pulled to the outside. If the right side chassis mount is lower than the axle mount then the body will jam the right tire more and cause the left tire to unload a little.look at the rc to tire contact patch. what is the angle?
 
  • #1,162
Sorry Mike I'm referring to the front axle so if I understand you correctly the side that the bar is angled towards will carry more of the load. I ask this because with a beam axle it is difficult to get heat on the left front tire. I often thought if I could build a thinner axle that would bend I could get better loading on that corner.
 
  • #1,163
correct..front or rear pnhard bar work the same.. draw out the force vectors...you need more static left sid weight to warm up the left ft tire or stiffer rt rear spring
 
  • #1,164
Will do. Thank you!
 
  • #1,165
So I ran a 3 link modified "B-Mod" for a while and noticed that a lot of guys had a really short panhard bar and ran it with a lot of angle. From your explanation that would mean that they would load the right tire more than the left and their roll center would migrate faster. Is that correct?

Regardless we ran a long panhard bar with 1-3" of rake it in and the car was always smooth. It liked to come up on the bars slower but was super consistent and never developed a push. I believe this was due to the fact that the roll center did not migrate near as quickly and kept both tires in the traction equally. Needless to say we won a lot of races with it and they were all scratching their heads at how the more "old school" technology was beating them.
 
  • #1,166
Wylde, without knowing all the specs, i would say you are spot on. Longer bars move in shorter arcs which means the RC would have minimum movement. Those short p-bars and J bars will really throw in some chassis jacking. Also running a small degree of angle (rake) means the tires are pretty equal loading. Old school got to be old school caz it worked then and will work now.
good advice from you and thanks
rm
 
  • #1,167
Ranger Mike what is your opinion on using different length trailing arms on the left and right side? I have 34.5 inch long arms and I was considering shortening up the
Left side. This would allow easier mounting of the front bracket.
 
  • #1,168
On 3 link paved track trailing arms, two things.

  1. Keep them equal length. Do not have different length trail arms on the car. (exception id dirt cars with ½ “difference to build more rear roll steer)
  1. Longer is better. Nasar uses 51 inch truck arm length. Typical 3 link tail arm length is 20” preferred length is 24”. Too short of a length means brake hop.
We set up both trail arms to 5 degree uphill angle so chassis roll yields roll understeer (even on pavement). The wheel base will grow on right side by ½ inch (depending on bar length).
The 3rd link mounting is just as important.

Post # 81 page 6

#253 pg 13

#312 pg 16

#707 pg 36
 
  • #1,169
Just out of curiosity, does any car on asphalt use a lift arm rather than a pull bar for their 3rd link?
 
  • #1,170
you can pretty much bet that every trick and wrinkle wil be tried by a crew chief to get an edge on the competition so yes..this bar issued and every other version as well
 
  • #1,171
Wylde said:
Just out of curiosity, does any car on asphalt use a lift arm rather than a pull bar for their 3rd link?
It is very commonly used in Tour-type Modifieds in the Northeast. They are commonly referred to as a Torque Arm. Depending on the car manufacturer and the driver preference they are mounted on ether side off the rear end.I have one on the car we recently purchased.
 
  • #1,172
drobbie you haven't raced with it yet? I looked at the Neuline at PRI and it looked pretty interesting as far as adjustability
 
  • #1,173
Vintageracer13 said:
drobbie you haven't raced with it yet? I looked at the Neuline at PRI and it looked pretty interesting as far as adjustability
Not in this car. I have in the past when I crewed for several NASCAR Whelen Modified teams. The ones we use have a rod end attach to the chassis and a rubber biscuit to absorb the shock under acceleration and deceleration.
 
  • #1,174
So what is your take on them? Thw Whelen Mods seems to be high horsepower with big sticky tires. My application is small hard tires and much lower horsepoer.
 
  • #1,175
Vintageracer13 said:
So what is your take on them? Thw Whelen Mods seems to be high horsepower with big sticky tires. My application is small hard tires and much lower horsepoer.
I think they can be very effective if they are set up right. Just like a pull bar, you need ensure its positioned left to right correctly, has the right amount of wrap up, etc. One of the things I think it does excel in is if you adjust the length you can increase or decrease the amount of effect it has lifting the chassis.
 
  • #1,176
You guys are really making me work this week!
I had to go to the hauler and dig out Short Track Chassis Set up by Duke Southard to get the third link low down. See attached pic - Note the use of the pull rod and rubber donut to tune in acceleration You must use a damper ( in this case coil over shock) to limit brake hop with this setup. This set up is for really big gummy slicks when you have big horsepower to use up. It looks like what you found under the old Gassers and Altered at the drag strip. Max traction but they did not worry about wheel hop since they had a parachute.

In our situation we have hard spec tires and somewhat limited horsepower compared to a full blown Modified or Sprint Car.
Let us understand what happens to the rear tires when cornering. Please look and study post # 1126 page 57. The tire contact patch at 0 slip angle to 8 degree slip angle. A we go over 8 degree slip angle we lose traction and spin out.

A no rear steer car will have its rear tires go into shear ( where the contact patch adhesion is less than the slippage area) quicker than a race car set up to have rear roll over steer.
As I said before the dirt track super late models run huge rear roll over steer. Watch or look at a photo of one of these beasts at turn entry. The left rear wheel axle center cover is almost at front of the sheet metal wheel well. The left side wheel base shrunk up as the right side wheel base grew.

Now paved track cars do not use a lot of this for to do so would quickly burn off the rear tires.
The typical set up on a 3 link rear end set up is to have both bottom links ( trailing arms) equal length and running up hill by 5 degrees. This cranks in about 1/4 to 1/2 inch wheel base change.Herb Adams wrote in his book Chassis Engineering that you can set up the rear end to angle to the left ( inside of the track) and adjust the trail arms to take way the induced under steer. See trail arms per attached pic below. I personally have under steer in any way shape or form so am just making you aware of this. Get his book and explore it if you like.

This brings us to the 3rd link. I noted above in post # 1168 page 59 about the 3rd link.
Please read these and the mount location is critical to get equal loading on both tires. As mentioned we once ran a 3rd link that ended at he drives gas pedal.

Spring link and rubber biscuit setups are supposed to ease tire shock when you mash the go pedal. True but there is a more important factor that is not apparent.
The race car goes into the turn and the body rolls causing the wheel base to grow on the right side. As the car accelerates the body settles and the roll over steer goes away.
The cushion rubber grommet or spring top connector bar maintains this roll over steer a tad bit longer than a solid non cushion top link. You stay in roll over steer a little bit longer.
Your tires maintain more tire contact than the less roll over steer car so you are hooked up and moving.

Small advantage but races are won on smaller things..savvy?
 

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  • #1,177
That makes sense to me Mike. I have repositioned my 3rd link mounting to take into account the mass percentage and after reading all the material I discovered I ran way too much angle.
 
  • Like
Likes Ranger Mike
  • #1,178
Vinny , great detective work. you should be a lot better hooking up those spec tires now. good job!
 
  • #1,179
All you guys get the credit Mike. I had over 20 degrees of angle in the 3rd link
 
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  • #1,180
20 degrees? Sounds like you were running dirt not asphalt!

An old engineer I used to race against ran modifieds for a long time in the 90's and 2000's (Him and I had a pretty good rivalry on the track but were great friends off track). This was when 3 link modifieds were still the hot ticket in our area at least. One day he was telling me that he used to run the right side trailing arms flat or even downhill when the track got really slick. From your second picture and the annotation under it, there was a statement saying if you can dial in roll over steer on entry and roll under steer on exit that's where it is fastest. This makes a lot more sense now why he would run a downhill angle on the rr trailing arm. I might have to try that out on my dad's B-Mod to see what exactly it does.

Thanks for the info RM. Glad we can keep you busy during this gloomy winter!
 
  • #1,181
Yes Wylde I got caught up in the monkey see monkey do game. It wasn't until I started reading the pages here that I realized how many things I didn't understand about setup. I'm very excited for the start of the season because I will have a new car handling wise compared to last season!
 
  • #1,182
Just finished up modeling my RC for my dirt late model. Numbers seem odd compared to what I have read in the forum, but I have remeasured them a few different ways and they repeat. Secondly I measured camber in the model and it is spot on to the actual measurement. Take a look at the picture and see what y'all think. http://imgur.com/a/VbWel
 
  • #1,183
I4VJ0ma.png
 
  • #1,184
smever. what software program is this? The Roll center height looks to be about 3.125" height, but too much to the right .. looks to be about twice the typical offset.
 
  • #1,185
I am subscribed to this thread.
60 pages of wisdom and real world theory!
Can't thank you guys enough!
 
  • #1,186
I built this in solidworks. It took a little while now configurable model. Next I will try to find the rear and get both in the same 3D sketch. So my RC height should be around 3" from the ground and 4" right of CL?
 
  • #1,187
i would think that is a good start point. Also where does the Rc migrate to in roll and dive?
 
  • #1,188
Ranger Mike I have a small splined sway bar that I am going to use on my car. It will contact the bottom of the axle on the left side and I plan on using an adjuster on the right side to tighten it. Because of the right side shock location I was thinking of mounting the adjuster to the backside of the axle but this would effectively make the right arm shorter. What are your thoughts on this?
 
  • #1,189
Back in the 1960s I was crewing on a Ford team. No one was running ARBs then. I was devouring every car magazine I could glom onto. We picked up a pick up truck ARB (sway bar) and mounted it to the top frame hoop rail that ran from the firewall to front end over the radiator and back to the fire wall. Same rail the shocks mounted to. We cobbled up a couple of links to run down and attach to the top A-Arms. Worked real good.

Is your set up going to be perfect..no...but I can tell you it will work.

All things being relative, the ARB will cut down body roll and you can go softer on the front springs, lower the car a little and pick up maybe a second quicker lap time. Go for it.
 
  • #1,190
Its only .550 so I can't load it too much. I just want to be able to tighten the car on exit if needed.
 
  • #1,191
I would say that ALL racers are pretty much a focused group of people working on a cold garage floor in the middle of January in a thankless effort to make a car of questionable merit just a little bit more competitive . Some days we get too focused to worry about the mortgage, wifes birthday let alone anniversary , mowing the lawn, let alone world hunger, politic ...case in point
see attached pic...says it all
 

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  • #1,192
I have a couple of questions about our asphalt modified that we race in the Northeast. We have put the car on a diet and taken off approximately 60 pounds which we will have to add back on. We can have 56% left side. Should we strive for a 50% nose and 50% rear?
The other question is coil bind? I think I read somewhere that when you take off your coil-overs the spring should be loose, or at least able to turn with the shock extended? I am assuming the spring would be set at ride height too? If it is true what do we do? Thanks !
 
  • #1,193
Welcome and thanks for the kind words
Front to rear weight 50 50 split is ideal. Ifin you can go 52% rear this is optimum.

The reason you want loose springs on the coil overs is repeatability of your setup.

We always had the Shock gods rebuild and dyno our Penske 3 way shocks. We had loose rear springs and the front was teched out with internal droop limiters so they had many turns preload on them.
We were told never to mess with the set up. We never did and won many championships in the Division. One thing we did use religiously was the hyperco spring perch's that would articulate and really reduced coil bind.

http://www.hypercoils.com/perchesno cheap to buy but when you think about it, it is the cheapest way to cut lap times by 1/2 second.
 
  • #1,194
Wow.. I just made it thru most of the 60 pages.
Amazing info here!
You guys really show your expirence!
Thanks for everything.

One thing I would like to bring into discussion that I didn't see was the old thoughts of high castor for numbers for helping transfer weight on the 3200 lb stock cars.

My stock car was prolly by far the best handling car I've ever been in.

But on to the castor trick a wise man taught me..
Positive castor drives right spindle up and lowers cross while turning in. And in same effect when turning in it also drives left spindle down further lowering cross. Basically loosening car by simply driving in.

And as you start to straighten the wheel back out it brings cross back into right side tightening car back up to get amazing bite on exit.

By positive caster, I mean way positive..
it ran +7 on left front and +9 on right front.

This car ran best w 3-3 left front and a 5-5 on right front. And 4-4s across the rear.
We had to run steel body hydraulic Shocks in stock location.
Cheap but very effective on this setup.

This car stayed flat as a pancake in the corner but transferred weight like no other. Weight transfer is the easiest traction when working properly.

Ranger Mike and others... trying to make your minds turn a bit
What's your take on this? And why hasn't anyone brought this setup up?
 
  • #1,195
Caster is usually split from left side and right side. by this I mean the right side caster is 2 to 3 degree larger than the left. Done correctly, the race car will turn itself in a turn. Power steering cars can run more caster. caster will build up your fore arms to look like Popeye the sailor if you want to go there.
Caster lifts the right front of the car by rotating the king pin angle causing the wheel to drive into the ground and lift the chassis. When doing so, it adds wedge to the left rear tire. Next time you scale a car read the left rear scale, then turn the steering wheel left and take a look. Left rear weight goes up but not much. When you run positive caster on the left front on a dirt car, when you counter steer, it adds wedge to the right rear tire and helps drive off the turn.
caster does not take away cross weight ( wedge).
 
  • #1,196
Dirtracer did you adjust your static cross weight down because of what was added dynamically by the higher caster?
 
  • #1,197
We set the car up like normal.
Mike is right, it didn't add cross.
When you turned in it de-wedged the car. And you turned straighter it wedged it back up. And if i had to over correct, it went even tighter which helps catch the rear end of car.

This set up was from a ole timer that ran stocks . I was distilled into my car ,
IT WORKED.
That car won 16 of the 19 nights I ran it.
 
  • #1,198
Ok I misunderstood. Always read something twice before opening my mouth is a rule I sometimes forget.
 
  • #1,199
you guys are not making life easy for the old ranger...now i got to slug out to the race car hauler and dig out my dirt track set up notes and start writin about rear steering and the whole thing..after i stop and get some beer..check back later ..you dirt racers may like it
 
  • #1,200
By no means am I a dirt track guy as you can spend your whole life studying tracks and such and still not hit on the right set up. Dirt racing is a black art and as much art as it is science. I have a hard-enough time getting things right on pavement so will just put in my two cents here.On Dirt, you do not want any rear roll over steer on a wet, tacky track. On hard packed dirt, yes, dial it in. That is why I recommend you know the chassis settings at ride height for zero roll steer, max roll over steer and a few settings in between.

4-Link Suspension systems use a Bird cage on each side of the axel that rotates around the axel tube. These bird cages have a top and bottom mount that mount radius rods to the chassis. Usually these are front facing as the pic depicts. Coil overs (sliders in some cases) are then mounted to the bird cage bottom mount on one side and dampers (shocks) are mounted to the back side of the mount. Sometimes the bottom mount attaches to a swing arm (Z link). We will study the more popular 4 Link suspension.

It became popular on dirt due to the ability to angle the top links upward where they attach to the frame mounts and use the tire thrust to load the tires. Any time the link is mounted uphill to the frame and the rear mount is downhill on the axel, the rear end will try to run under the chassis. This will load the tire bigtime. We have axel thrust.

Originally, these 4 links were designed to minimize rear steer during chassis roll. About 20 years ago, we wanted zero change in the wheel base as it was thought that this provided the most stable handling situation. Although it was thought that a small amount of rear roll steer would assist in turning the car but excessive amounts of roll rear steer was to be avoided.

Typical settings on 4-link was upper right link at 17° up hill,

upper left link at 13° uphill,

Both bottom links at 5° downhill.

This set up would add ¼ inch right side wheel base and reduce left side wheel base by ½” for ¾ inch rear over steer. Hardly noticeable.

As with anything having to do with fast cars, young women, and old whiskey, it was not long before some wild man started running more rear roll over steer than the next guy and now we have insane gobs of wheel base change and all kinds of body twist and shout!

Wild…

Now the wheel base changes up to 4 or more inches and we have link settings like

Typical settings on 4-link was upper right link at 18° up hill,

upper left link at 22° uphill,

Left bottom links at 5° Uphill. Right bottom level to the ground.

But a picture is worth me typing 1000 words and even more fun is watching this action.

This is rear over steer in action - Jake Bridge-Left rear dirt late model


2008 Hoffman Dirt Modified 4 link Rear Suspension with sliders torque link /damper
E-Mod on dirt Matt Stagman Rear Suspension Cam
Why you had better have that torque link and damper properly mounted
Modified 4 link camera on right rear. Cool index of bird cage. Tie down that brake hose!

Passmore Racing Dirt Late Model Torque Arm Video
I could watch this stuff all day...
 

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