Trying to Wire a Washing Machine Motor To Power a Grain Mill

[hawaiibrewer]

Aloha, I'm new here and stumbled across this site in my attempt to salvage a whirlpool washer motor to repurpose as a motor to grind barley to make my beer. Until now, I just used a hand crank and decided it's time to modernize. I just salvaged a nice looking, 3 speed, 1/2 hp motor from a recycle place here in Hawaii and have been trying to get it to run. I actually succeeded in getting it to run, but within 15-20 seconds, it gets too hot to touch, so I know something is wrong with my wiring. Until I did further reading on this forum, I was unaware that I probably should have looked for a capacitor near the motor. There was not one attached to the motor. The motor did start without needing a spin of the shaft, so I thought maybe a capacitor wasn't needed. I' ll try to attach an image of the motor and 6 wires coming off of it. I also have the wire harness that has a grey wire which attaches separately to the motor via a small, black object connected to a white wire that disappears into the motor. I hate to give up on trying to use what seems to be a good motor...and at this time, its more about making it work versus trying to save a few dollars. Thanks for any help with this...I hope this forum is still active. The motor is Whirlpool part number 852995. Aloha, Paul

 

[hawaiibrewer]

Here is an image of the motor...https://www.google.com/search?q=8529935+motor+whirlpool&hl=en-US&source=univ&tbm=isch&tbo=u&sa=X&ved=0CEUQsARqFQoTCOH8xcvrgsgCFUhRiAodbaQBtw&biw=768&bih=604#hl=en-US&tbm=isch&q=8529935+motor+whirlpool+image&imgrc=ZcWfX1p1pQME7M%3A http://data:image/jpeg;base64,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 http://www.genuineapplianceparts.com/item/8529935_Sears_Kenmore_Direct_Drive_Washer_Motor/2697/c46 http://www.genuineapplianceparts.com/item/8529935_Sears_Kenmore_Direct_Drive_Washer_Motor/2697/c46

 

[anorlunda]

Welcome to PF.

Questions of wiring AC power circuits should be directed to a licensed electrician. A mistake or misunderstanding could result in injury or death. Indeed, you already had a close call when the motor got too hot to touch. PF rules do not allow us to discuss dangerous topics on this very public forum.

 

[Merlin3189]

You could try http://www.electronicspoint.com where there are plenty of qualified people with interest in such things.

 

[Nugatory]

If you could find a wiring diagram for the washing machine that motor came out of, you'd know how the motor is supposed to be wired. Chances are you'll find one online if you keep looking.

Be aware that if the motor became too hot to touch, it may not be a perfectly good motor any more - you may have killed it.

 

[jim hardy]

I'll have something for you later today.
I also owe Tim9000 help with his inductor

and am in the middle of putting siding on the house..

Whirlpools I've found all use the same speed switch but the wire colors vary somewhat depending if it's from a Sears, Whirlpool, Maytag or KitchenAid. I just did a GE too, their switch is different ...

But there's basic physics that dictates what any manufacturer had to do to make their motor start and run. From there it's obvious why they wired it the way they did.
Once you've figured out your first one it's intuitive.

I'd recommend you do your work from a GFCI outlet, and by code any outdoor or garage outlet should be GFCI. So should anything in bathroom or near kitchen sink - perhaps your wife would let you run an extension cord? Then you are very well protected.
I made myself a cord with GFCI receptacle. I had an old cord with a bad end, just nailed an electrical box to a plank installed the GFC! and wired the old cord to it.

Meantime can you insert a photo of the motor? Is it two speeds or three?

 

[jim hardy]

okay here goes...
That it started itself says something is wrong,
and that could be shorted turns in the motor
or it could be your wiring.

From your link:
these are the important parts

You said it's a 3 speed motor.

Firstly this is a physics forum so a word on motors is in order.

This page shows the rotating magnetic field of a motor after it has started.....
http://www.ece.umn.edu/users/riaz/animations/sqmovies.html
sorry, can't post that image

Before it starts, Bm does not rotate just oscillates in the vertical plane. So the rotor does not know which way to turn.
That's because a vertically oscillating magnetic field can be represented as two uniform ones rotating in opposite directions
and the rotor is happy to follow either one after you nudge it in either direction.
That's key to motor theory - a rotating flux must have two components and their angle must not be 180 degrees. The start capacitor and its winding give you that phase shifted component , it's exact angle is not critical but somewhere around 90 degrees works best..

That's why there is a start winding, to provide rotation to Bm until the rotor has begun spinning. Once that happens it'll follow whichever component of Bm you picked and you can disconnect the start winding.

Okay, so a washing machine requires two windings to start and run, a run winding and a start winding.
The run winding is energized continually , the start winding only briefly, so the start winding is probably made from smaller wire.
If the motor is multispeed there'll be multiple run windings.

So let's draw a picture...

Pardon my crude schematic
get yourself a pencil and paper and draw one for your motor, arranged to suit your likes.

Those windings will be interconnected by switches so that you only have to apply power and the motor will go.
The Start-Run switch is the key to figuring out your motor.
To keep that switch simple and cheap to manufacture, not every wire will go through it.
Here's what Whirlpool does on that style motor:

All 3 run windings (at least in my Whirlpools) are tied together and that common point exits the motor through the thermal switch, which goes to the washer's white(neutral) wire.
Makes sense, the thermal should protect all the run windings..

Since the start-run switch is the key to understanding how they wired this motor, let's look at it...
Only one screw holds it in place and the cover slides off easily

The centrifugal switch moves the contacts UP when the motor is stopped, ready to start
and let's them DOWN when it is running. (oops said it backward first try)

Closer view? I'll number the terminals left to right..

OBSERVE TERMINAL 6 is a safety Earth connection. The mounting screw ties it to the motor frame.
Remember that switch is now DOWN, in the RUN position.

With your ohmmeter you can now verify that all 3 run windings have a common connection to the white wire exiting the thermal device.
I'll wager you find continuity between 4, 7 and 9 which are the three run windings , and their common at 3.

So let us now identify the start winding...
It is a safe bet that bottom contact controls the start winding because it's open in RUN (down)and closed in START(up).
So power to start winding comes in on 10, goes through contact up to 1, and into start winding's black wire,
but back out where ?
Find it with your ohmmeter ,
and i bet you a junkpile motor other end of start winding is that yellow wire on 5.(red on some motors)
So start winding power takes route 10-switch-1-black wire-yellow wire-5.

Now for run windings...
think a moment... there's three of them.
Here's where the designers got clever with their switch...

Start winding must have same number of poles as whichever run winding is selected or else the motor will just buzz and get hot.
(Trust me for a moment - they always start on high speed. Proof later...)
Which means ,
IF you want to run at low speed
THEN the START-RUN switch must select that lower speed AFTER the motor has started.Okay, which contact does that ?
Hint : the only one left.

Remember the switch is UP to START , DOWN to run so it's shown in running position.
So, RUN power comes in on 8, through the speed switch and back out on either 4 or 2.
Since switch is UP to start, and start is always high speed, then 4 must be the high speed winding.
Were this a 2 speed motor with only one more run winding, that winding would be on 2 (and it is on my 2 speed Whirlpool)
but since this is a 3 speed motor with 3 run windings,
the choice of which low speed winding to use is made by another switch.
Those other two low speed windings are on 7 and 9
you will verify all the above with your ohmmeter of course.

The run windings' common goes to the thermal gizmo as mentioned earlier

so let's add these terminal numbers to our earlier sketch

Look how clever they were.
Start winding is isolated so we can select direction it'll run with an external switch
But - run winding common is brought to the switch , terminal 3, just to provide a point where designer can hook the start winding's return side. Note that routes start winding return through thermal for protection. But it let's designer swap directions easily with an external reversing switch.

Likewise we select between the two low speeds with an external switch.

White common wire from thermal on some motors lands on the switch, on others it does not...

Let's add the start capacitor... and our switches... and the safety Earth to terminal 6...
wires you'll need are in yellow (and green)

I use wall switches from the hardware store, they're cheaper than small toggles. And they mount in handy boxes.
For high-low speed selectors 3-way light switches work fine, they're spdt

here's my 3 speed Whirlpool, one switch is ON OFF, other is fast-slow. I only wired up two of the 3 speeds.

Start capacitor seems not critical maybe 40 uf per horsepower. This is a 1/2 hp and it starts fine with a 20 uf motor run capacitor

All the above being said

energize just your run winding and see if it will start with a spin.
If it runs okay both directions,
repeat for the low speed windings.

Last thing -
how do i know they always start on fast speed?
By experiment. I energized just the low speed winding and gave it a spin. It ran, but not fast enough to activate the centrifugal start-run switch.

Note to PF administrators
I considered submitting an Insights on this, but since it isn't very academic it's offered as plain folks help.
Price a new 1/2 hp motor for a workshop project and you'll quickly appreciate the humble washing machine motor salvaged from a discard.
And it's written to teach a beginner how to figure it out next time .

old jim

 

[meBigGuy]

WOW, that was an incredible post, Jim. Should be preserved somewhere.
Way too practical for Physics Forum though. Pretty soon people are going to expect everyone to actually research topics and post real answers.

 

[jim hardy]

Thanks MBG

my friends all now have better shop grinders and shop fans than we could afford to buy new...

Maybe someone could improve my motor theory and get the post up to PF standards.

The GE motor had a simpler switch than the Whirlpool but my pictures were out of focus. These were taken with a friend's cellphone...

The principle is straightforward just there's too many permutations of the wires to guess at it.

So armed with basic understanding of how a motor works, anyone can peek inside the switch and figure out how to make it go.

Be aware - new washing machine motors are synthesized 3 phase field vector oriented computer controlled tech-shows
so stash away a few of these oldies. They're on the way out.

 

[meBigGuy]

Awww --- and here I was thinking how cool it was that old jim had a cellphone that could take pictures. The post is way over PF standards.

 

[hawaiibrewer]

okay here goes...
That it started itself says something is wrong,
and that could be shorted turns in the motor
or it could be your wiring.

From your link:
these are the important parts

View attachment 88887

You said it's a 3 speed motor.

Firstly this is a physics forum so a word on motors is in order.

This page shows the rotating magnetic field of a motor after it has started.....
http://www.ece.umn.edu/users/riaz/animations/sqmovies.html
sorry, can't post that image

Before it starts, Bm does not rotate just oscillates in the vertical plane. So the rotor does not know which way to turn.
That's because a vertically oscillating magnetic field can be represented as two uniform ones rotating in opposite directions
and the rotor is happy to follow either one after you nudge it in either direction.
That's key to motor theory - a rotating flux must have two components and their angle must not be 180 degrees. The start capacitor and its winding give you that phase shifted component , it's exact angle is not critical but somewhere around 90 degrees works best..

That's why there is a start winding, to provide rotation to Bm until the rotor has begun spinning. Once that happens it'll follow whichever component of Bm you picked and you can disconnect the start winding.

Okay, so a washing machine requires two windings to start and run, a run winding and a start winding.
The run winding is energized continually , the start winding only briefly, so the start winding is probably made from smaller wire.
If the motor is multispeed there'll be multiple run windings.

So let's draw a picture...

Pardon my crude schematic
get yourself a pencil and paper and draw one for your motor, arranged to suit your likes.
View attachment 88888

Those windings will be interconnected by switches so that you only have to apply power and the motor will go.
The Start-Run switch is the key to figuring out your motor.
To keep that switch simple and cheap to manufacture, not every wire will go through it.
Here's what Whirlpool does on that style motor:
View attachment 88889
All 3 run windings (at least in my Whirlpools) are tied together and that common point exits the motor through the thermal switch, which goes to the washer's white(neutral) wire.
Makes sense, the thermal should protect all the run windings..

Since the start-run switch is the key to understanding how they wired this motor, let's look at it...
Only one screw holds it in place and the cover slides off easily

View attachment 88890

The centrifugal switch moves the contacts UP when the motor is stopped, ready to start
and let's them DOWN when it is running. (oops said it backward first try)

Closer view? I'll number the terminals left to right..
View attachment 88896

OBSERVE TERMINAL 6 is a safety Earth connection. The mounting screw ties it to the motor frame.
Remember that switch is now DOWN, in the RUN position.

With your ohmmeter you can now verify that all 3 run windings have a common connection to the white wire exiting the thermal device.
I'll wager you find continuity between 4, 7 and 9 which are the three run windings , and their common at 3.

So let us now identify the start winding...
It is a safe bet that bottom contact controls the start winding because it's open in RUN (down)and closed in START(up).
So power to start winding comes in on 10, goes through contact up to 1, and into start winding's black wire,
but back out where ?
Find it with your ohmmeter ,
and i bet you a junkpile motor other end of start winding is that yellow wire on 5.(red on some motors)
So start winding power takes route 10-switch-1-black wire-yellow wire-5.

Now for run windings...
think a moment... there's three of them.
Here's where the designers got clever with their switch...

Start winding must have same number of poles as whichever run winding is selected or else the motor will just buzz and get hot.
(Trust me for a moment - they always start on high speed. Proof later...)
Which means ,
IF you want to run at low speed
THEN the START-RUN switch must select that lower speed AFTER the motor has started.Okay, which contact does that ?
Hint : the only one left.

View attachment 88901
Remember the switch is UP to START , DOWN to run so it's shown in running position.
So, RUN power comes in on 8, through the speed switch and back out on either 4 or 2.
Since switch is UP to start, and start is always high speed, then 4 must be the high speed winding.
Were this a 2 speed motor with only one more run winding, that winding would be on 2 (and it is on my 2 speed Whirlpool)
but since this is a 3 speed motor with 3 run windings,
the choice of which low speed winding to use is made by another switch.
Those other two low speed windings are on 7 and 9
you will verify all the above with your ohmmeter of course.

The run windings' common goes to the thermal gizmo as mentioned earlier

so let's add these terminal numbers to our earlier sketch

View attachment 88904
Look how clever they were.
Start winding is isolated so we can select direction it'll run with an external switch
But - run winding common is brought to the switch , terminal 3, just to provide a point where designer can hook the start winding's return side. Note that routes start winding return through thermal for protection. But it let's designer swap directions easily with an external reversing switch.

Likewise we select between the two low speeds with an external switch.

White common wire from thermal on some motors lands on the switch, on others it does not...

Let's add the start capacitor... and our switches... and the safety Earth to terminal 6...
wires you'll need are in yellow (and green)

View attachment 88927

I use wall switches from the hardware store, they're cheaper than small toggles. And they mount in handy boxes.
For high-low speed selectors 3-way light switches work fine, they're spdt

View attachment 88933

here's my 3 speed Whirlpool, one switch is ON OFF, other is fast-slow. I only wired up two of the 3 speeds.
View attachment 88911Start capacitor seems not critical maybe 40 uf per horsepower. This is a 1/2 hp and it starts fine with a 20 uf motor run capacitor

All the above being said

energize just your run winding and see if it will start with a spin.
If it runs okay both directions,
repeat for the low speed windings.

Last thing -
how do i know they always start on fast speed?
By experiment. I energized just the low speed winding and gave it a spin. It ran, but not fast enough to activate the centrifugal start-run switch.

Note to PF administrators
I considered submitting an Insights on this, but since it isn't very academic it's offered as plain folks help.
Price a new 1/2 hp motor for a workshop project and you'll quickly appreciate the humble washing machine motor salvaged from a discard.
And it's written to teach a beginner how to figure it out next time .

old jim

okay here goes...
That it started itself says something is wrong,
and that could be shorted turns in the motor
or it could be your wiring.

From your link:
these are the important parts

View attachment 88887

You said it's a 3 speed motor.

Firstly this is a physics forum so a word on motors is in order.

This page shows the rotating magnetic field of a motor after it has started.....
http://www.ece.umn.edu/users/riaz/animations/sqmovies.html
sorry, can't post that image

Before it starts, Bm does not rotate just oscillates in the vertical plane. So the rotor does not know which way to turn.
That's because a vertically oscillating magnetic field can be represented as two uniform ones rotating in opposite directions
and the rotor is happy to follow either one after you nudge it in either direction.
That's key to motor theory - a rotating flux must have two components and their angle must not be 180 degrees. The start capacitor and its winding give you that phase shifted component , it's exact angle is not critical but somewhere around 90 degrees works best..

That's why there is a start winding, to provide rotation to Bm until the rotor has begun spinning. Once that happens it'll follow whichever component of Bm you picked and you can disconnect the start winding.

Okay, so a washing machine requires two windings to start and run, a run winding and a start winding.
The run winding is energized continually , the start winding only briefly, so the start winding is probably made from smaller wire.
If the motor is multispeed there'll be multiple run windings.

So let's draw a picture...

Pardon my crude schematic
get yourself a pencil and paper and draw one for your motor, arranged to suit your likes.
View attachment 88888

Those windings will be interconnected by switches so that you only have to apply power and the motor will go.
The Start-Run switch is the key to figuring out your motor.
To keep that switch simple and cheap to manufacture, not every wire will go through it.
Here's what Whirlpool does on that style motor:
View attachment 88889
All 3 run windings (at least in my Whirlpools) are tied together and that common point exits the motor through the thermal switch, which goes to the washer's white(neutral) wire.
Makes sense, the thermal should protect all the run windings..

Since the start-run switch is the key to understanding how they wired this motor, let's look at it...
Only one screw holds it in place and the cover slides off easily

View attachment 88890

The centrifugal switch moves the contacts UP when the motor is stopped, ready to start
and let's them DOWN when it is running. (oops said it backward first try)

Closer view? I'll number the terminals left to right..
View attachment 88896

OBSERVE TERMINAL 6 is a safety Earth connection. The mounting screw ties it to the motor frame.
Remember that switch is now DOWN, in the RUN position.

With your ohmmeter you can now verify that all 3 run windings have a common connection to the white wire exiting the thermal device.
I'll wager you find continuity between 4, 7 and 9 which are the three run windings , and their common at 3.

So let us now identify the start winding...
It is a safe bet that bottom contact controls the start winding because it's open in RUN (down)and closed in START(up).
So power to start winding comes in on 10, goes through contact up to 1, and into start winding's black wire,
but back out where ?
Find it with your ohmmeter ,
and i bet you a junkpile motor other end of start winding is that yellow wire on 5.(red on some motors)
So start winding power takes route 10-switch-1-black wire-yellow wire-5.

Now for run windings...
think a moment... there's three of them.
Here's where the designers got clever with their switch...

Start winding must have same number of poles as whichever run winding is selected or else the motor will just buzz and get hot.
(Trust me for a moment - they always start on high speed. Proof later...)
Which means ,
IF you want to run at low speed
THEN the START-RUN switch must select that lower speed AFTER the motor has started.Okay, which contact does that ?
Hint : the only one left.

View attachment 88901
Remember the switch is UP to START , DOWN to run so it's shown in running position.
So, RUN power comes in on 8, through the speed switch and back out on either 4 or 2.
Since switch is UP to start, and start is always high speed, then 4 must be the high speed winding.
Were this a 2 speed motor with only one more run winding, that winding would be on 2 (and it is on my 2 speed Whirlpool)
but since this is a 3 speed motor with 3 run windings,
the choice of which low speed winding to use is made by another switch.
Those other two low speed windings are on 7 and 9
you will verify all the above with your ohmmeter of course.

The run windings' common goes to the thermal gizmo as mentioned earlier

so let's add these terminal numbers to our earlier sketch

View attachment 88904
Look how clever they were.
Start winding is isolated so we can select direction it'll run with an external switch
But - run winding common is brought to the switch , terminal 3, just to provide a point where designer can hook the start winding's return side. Note that routes start winding return through thermal for protection. But it let's designer swap directions easily with an external reversing switch.

Likewise we select between the two low speeds with an external switch.

White common wire from thermal on some motors lands on the switch, on others it does not...

Let's add the start capacitor... and our switches... and the safety Earth to terminal 6...
wires you'll need are in yellow (and green)

View attachment 88927

I use wall switches from the hardware store, they're cheaper than small toggles. And they mount in handy boxes.
For high-low speed selectors 3-way light switches work fine, they're spdt

View attachment 88933

here's my 3 speed Whirlpool, one switch is ON OFF, other is fast-slow. I only wired up two of the 3 speeds.
View attachment 88911Start capacitor seems not critical maybe 40 uf per horsepower. This is a 1/2 hp and it starts fine with a 20 uf motor run capacitor

All the above being said

energize just your run winding and see if it will start with a spin.
If it runs okay both directions,
repeat for the low speed windings.

Last thing -
how do i know they always start on fast speed?
By experiment. I energized just the low speed winding and gave it a spin. It ran, but not fast enough to activate the centrifugal start-run switch.

Note to PF administrators
I considered submitting an Insights on this, but since it isn't very academic it's offered as plain folks help.
Price a new 1/2 hp motor for a workshop project and you'll quickly appreciate the humble washing machine motor salvaged from a discard.
And it's written to teach a beginner how to figure it out next time .

old jim

Awww --- and here I was thinking how cool it was that old jim had a cellphone that could take pictures. The post is way over PF standards.

Wow, fast response and very thorough for sure. Thanks Jim. I'll get out my meter tomorrow(Sunday) and do some playing around with the switch. I took the switch apart yesterday to get an idea of what was inside and saw the contacts but didn't put any meter across them since I really wasn't sure what I was looking at. Once I get the wiring sorted out and k ow its a good motor, I'll go (try) to buy a starting capacitor for the motor. In the mean time, I'll use the " manual" spin technique for starting it. I have all GFI in the garage, kitchen, bathroom and my home brewery so I typically use those when playing with electricity. Always keep a fire extinguisher on hand too. I appreciate the other comments about safety and hiring an electrician, but I won't learn anything and its not as fun as doing it yourself. I could buy a new motor on line( none available in my town in Hawaii), but that's the simple/easy solution. I've had zero luck posting photos or an avatar from my tablet...so I'll try from my pc tomorrow, but Jim's photos look just like what's sitting on my bench.
Aloha and thanks again,
Paul

 

[jim hardy]

Capacitor costs $6 at my local electrical supply place. They're in every junk airconditioner(fan run cap) or washing machine...

I first give motors the sniff test, do they smell burnt? Are any windings charred or mechanically damaged(scrapes, gouges, cuts) ?
My junkyard guys just throw them on a pile so bent shafts cracked frames and smashed switches are common.
Before you apply power check to make sure no windings read continuity to motor frame.

Have fun, and take pride in recycling a pretty darn good piece of machinery.

UPLOAD button below & right will find pictures on my machine - try it with your tablet ?

 

[hawaiibrewer]

Capacitor costs $6 at my local electrical supply place. They're in every junk airconditioner(fan run cap) or washing machine...

I first give motors the sniff test, do they smell burnt? Are any windings charred or mechanically damaged(scrapes, gouges, cuts) ?
My junkyard guys just throw them on a pile so bent shafts cracked frames and smashed switches are common.
Before you apply power check to make sure no windings read continuity to motor frame.

Have fun, and take pride in recycling a pretty darn good piece of machinery.

UPLOAD button below & right will find pictures on my machine - try it with your tablet ?

I'm on my PC now and it seems to handle the pictures/avatar loading much better...here is my motor that I'll be working on today thanks to your help...the wire harness from the washer is attached in the 2nd photo. Once I determine if the motor is good, I'll use the harness wiring to connect to my on/off switch. I happen to have a couple light switches that I removed from our house when I replaced them with ceiling fan speed switches. I already bought a junction box to hold the switch(s). I'll check our local AC/electrical supply store tomorrow to get a capacitor, I'm sure they'll have one. I'm sure the washer I salvaged the motor from had a capacitor but since it wasn't attached to the motor, I ignored looking for it. After looking at a Whirlpool wiring diagram for similar models, the capacitor wasn't located far from the motor...next motor I salvage I'll be more thorough.

Oh by the way Jim, are clothes dryer motors worth salvaging? Seems to me they would mostly be all single speed, not as fast as a washer, and might be better suited for my use since I need about 200 rpm for optimum grain crushing for beer, My plan was to run the washer on low speed(850rpm) and then use pulleys to reduce it to about 200 rpm.

Thanks again for your help and encouragement...I'm printing your prior response now to follow as I test my motor.

Aloha,

Paul

 

[jim hardy]

Oh by the way Jim, are clothes dryer motors worth salvaging? Seems to me they would mostly be all single speed, not as fast as a washer, and might be better suited for my use since I need about 200 rpm for optimum grain crushing for beer, My plan was to run the washer on low speed(850rpm) and then use pulleys to reduce it to about 200 rpm.

good pictures. Yours looks just like mine only cleaner.

Sounds fine. I don't know how much torque you need...
the motor might be better able to cool itself at high speed - notice those fins on end of rotor? They're a crude centrifugal fan to move air over the windings... so try to keep your pulley options open. If you have an AC ammeter check running current against nameplate

The few dryer motors I've looked at at were 230 volt(not handy) single speed (same as washer motor's high) and only 1/4 hp. They have a really small pulley to make the drum turn slowly, but it's that special grooved dryer belt...


I really recommend you draw a schematic and add colors of every wire. Yours look exactly same as mine. .

One last word on the safety issue.
Washing machine induction motors are benign, 1800 rpm is their maximun speed at 60 hz.
Never use a vacuum cleaner motor for a home project. Vacuum cleaner motors are series wound universal motors, powerful, and capable of extreme RPM's in excess of 10,000. A typical ceramic grinding wheel will fly apart around 5000 RPM and embed pieces in the wall, ceiling , and spectators.
If it's got brushes, leave it in the junkpile.

That'd cut off an arm.Think safe.
old jim

 

[hawaiibrewer]

good pictures. Yours looks just like mine only cleaner.

Sounds fine. I don't know how much torque you need...
the motor might be better able to cool itself at high speed - notice those fins on end of rotor? They're a crude centrifugal fan to move air over the windings... so try to keep your pulley options open. If you have an AC ammeter check running current against nameplate

The few dryer motors I've looked at at were 230 volt(not handy) single speed (same as washer motor's high) and only 1/4 hp. They have a really small pulley to make the drum turn slowly, but it's that special grooved dryer belt... I really recommend you draw a schematic and add colors of every wire. Yours look exactly same as mine. .

One last word on the safety issue.
Washing machine induction motors are benign, 1800 rpm is their maximun speed at 60 hz.
Never use a vacuum cleaner motor for a home project. Vacuum cleaner motors are series wound universal motors, powerful, and capable of extreme RPM's in excess of 10,000. A typical ceramic grinding wheel will fly apart around 5000 RPM and embed pieces in the wall, ceiling , and spectators.
If it's got brushes, leave it in the junkpile.
View attachment 89036
That'd cut off an arm.Think safe.
old jim

I was wondering about the lower speed torque and figured I'd just try it and see if it turned the mill. The rollers are small and the weight of the grain is pretty light. I hadn't thought about the cooling aspect. The grinding process only takes about 10-15 minutes, and increasing the large pulley size in order to use a higher speed is possible.
Not being an electronic guy...more a mechanical guy, it seemed like what you were explaining is that I need to start the motor at a high speed(blue wire #4) before I can switch it to low speed(white with orange strip wire #9). I was trying to keep it simple and wire as attached...by the way, all windings checked out after using your guidance. Pics attached of my grain mill as I'd imagined and wiring diagram.

For sure I'm aware of speed with motors and saw a You Tube of the exploding grinding wheel...caused a fatality.

Thanks for being patient with me and walking me thru the motor wiring, I'm learning a lot and I guess that's part of the reason for the forum.

Aloha,

Paul

 

[berkeman]

This thread is a little marginal safety-wise, but I'll allow it for now. I know Jim will report it if it goes on the wrong side of the "safety barrier".

BTW, I may have missed it, but where are the fuse and switch being placed in all of this? What is the fuse rating? How is Earth ground connected to the metal body at the power inlet?

 

[jim hardy]

Paul - you seem a practical sort... most mechanicals are...See my changes to your wiring sketch.

Greg's right it oughta be fused (10 amps about right for 8 amp low speed winding)
and be sure center ground prong on cord is tied to any metal that touches the motor or wiring.
Congratulations on posting pictures,
Above all keep this thing safe for any tiny fingers that might be in your household - belt guards, wiring covers etc.

keep us posted.

 

[jim hardy]

 

[hawaiibrewer]

Paul - you seem a practical sort... most mechanicals are...See my changes to your wiring sketch.

View attachment 89046

Greg's right it oughta be fused (10 amps about right for 8 amp low speed winding)
and be sure center ground prong on cord is tied to any metal that touches the motor or wiring.
Congratulations on posting pictures,
Above all keep this thing safe for any tiny fingers that might be in your household - belt guards, wiring covers etc.

keep us posted.

Thanks for the image of your shop fan...maybe another project for me if I can scavange another motor.

The sad thing here on this island is that nobody disassembles the "broken" appliances to salvage parts. They are crushed and sold as scrap waste...so my timing has to be when a new discarded appliance arrives before crushing.

Once I get the thing working, I'll build a guard for the pulleys but I'll be the only one using it(64 yrs old) and no kids will ever see it. I'll ground it to the metal body via a tapped screw and use the 3 prong/wire cord I have. I'll use heat shrink tubing and wire nuts to cover any exposed wire not in the junction switch box...I try to keep things safe.

Ok, 9:30am, off to buy a capacitor and fuse link/wire...

Aloha...

Paul

 

[jim hardy]

They are crushed and sold as scrap waste...

Maybe he'd set a couple aside for you - my salvage yard will do that. They have a bin for electric motors and transformers. Found a Tektronix 2211 Oscilloscope in it ... 30 cents a pound.

I clamp the motor between wood blocks notched to fit , tighten with plumber's strap and carriage bolts.

Thanks for the update - good luck !

Bonjour, y'all !

 

[dlgoff]

Maybe someone could improve my motor theory and get the post up to PF standards.

Very little needed to do that Jim. Just this:

This page shows the rotating magnetic field of a motor after it has started.....
http://www.ece.umn.edu/users/riaz/animations/sqmovies.html
sorry, can't post that image

Well, the dang .gif motor looks fine in the preview.

 

[jim hardy]

Well, the dang .gif motor looks fine in the preview.

yes, that was frustrating. Computers are just that way.

Thanks Don.

 

[dlgoff]

This thread is a little marginal safety-wise, ...

Which part? The wires or the pullies? I guess I'm remembering a few weeks ago when my middle finger got to close to a moving belt. Still have finger, but belts needs replacing. True story. Safety should always be first priority and reevaluated in every task of a project. Get lax, loose a finger.

 

[hawaiibrewer]

Maybe he'd set a couple aside for you - my salvage yard will do that. They have a bin for electric motors and transformers. Found a Tektronix 2211 Oscilloscope in it ... 30 cents a pound.

I clamp the motor between wood blocks notched to fit , tighten with plumber's strap and carriage bolts.

Thanks for the update - good luck !

Bonjour, y'all !

...I found a capacitor, but took me 3 places before an electrical supply house had it...$11.00...the "island tax" almost doubles much that we get here. Many on-line sellers won't even ship to Hawaii or Alaska...Oh well, the down side to island living. Found the fuse wiring, 20amp, at Walmart...much cheaper than any electrical supply place. I'll wire things up this afternoon and see how it goes...

Thanks again for all your help and hand holding.

Aloha,

Paul

 

[hawaiibrewer]

Which part? The wires or the pullies? I guess I'm remembering a few weeks ago when my middle finger got to close to a moving belt. Still have finger, but belts needs replacing. True story. Safety should always be first priority and reevaluated in every task of a project. Get lax, loose a finger.

Both parts of safety...wires will shock you, belts burn/cut you...I'm used to moving belts since I have a drill press, band saw, and other power wood working tools...and remember all the industrial arts videos in Jr. High School of boards being kicked back via a table saw thru people and hair, loose clothing and ties being caught in belts/pulleys. Having been shocked many times while working around our house, I'm "sort of" used to electrical shocks and much to my wife's chagrin, have been known to change switches and outlets without throwing the circuit breaker.

 

[jim hardy]

I may have given bad advice on capacitor value.

I'm seeing replacement washing machine capacitors in the ~100 to 300 microfarad range.(abbreviated uf or mfd)
Your grain mill might require a lot of torque if starting it loaded,
so if it's slow or hesitant to start - get a bigger start capacitor.

the motor in my pictures started fine with 10 uf
i used the 20uf because i had it around and it worked
that motor was basically unloaded and the start was fairly gentle with 20 uf.

The one on my shop fan says "88 - 100 microfarad" and that motor starts with authority!.

I think this is the one Sears sells for some washers that use your motor, over 300 uf
You can tweak capacitor value to get a suitably quick but nonviolent start . You'll probably want a softer start for your mill than the washing machine capacitor would give.

old jim

 

[hawaiibrewer]

Aloha and thank s for the info. The 20uf capacitor seems to start the motor and pulleys just fine and I can hear the start motor windings kick off within seconds of the motor starting. I had to bump up to a bigger fuse rather than the 10A I started with as it would "blow" during start up no doubt because of the added load from the belt tension and pulleys. The motor actually lists 9.8A on the ID plate so having to go bigger doesn't surprise me. I won't add the grain to the grinder until it is running full speed at 200rpm so the momentum will help get things grinding easier. I haven't fabricated a belt guard yet which I'll probably make from heavy hardware cloth mesh. At only 200rpm, it's not a scary device compared to my table and band saw. I had to fork out $40 to get the 2 pulley's from the mainland...nothing available on this island...and the drive belt was $23 which I imagine is a lot more than the mainland cost. All in all, I'm very happy with the finished project thanks to you, Jim, and the Physics Forum.

Aloha,
Paul[

 

[jim hardy]

I can hear the start motor windings kick off within seconds of the motor starting.

Sounds a little slow, keep your eyes peeled for a start cap in the 100 uf range. My big old shop fan starts in about 3/4 second with 100 uf.
Motors draw several times nameplate current during start so faster start will let you use a smaller fuse. I'm sorry i didnt think of that earlier. The motor in my photos is for a low inertia easy starting load so the soft start with 20uf is just right..

All that said, - congratulations on your new mill. Nice looking construction .

Thanks for sharing your success.

Keep your drawing handy, for when they see that cool looking motor your friends will want one too !.

 

[BLANKAJ]

I'll have something for you later today.
I also owe Tim9000 help with his inductor

and am in the middle of putting siding on the house..

Whirlpools I've found all use the same speed switch but the wire colors vary somewhat depending if it's from a Sears, Whirlpool, Maytag or KitchenAid. I just did a GE too, their switch is different ...

But there's basic physics that dictates what any manufacturer had to do to make their motor start and run. From there it's obvious why they wired it the way they did.
Once you've figured out your first one it's intuitive.

I'd recommend you do your work from a GFCI outlet, and by code any outdoor or garage outlet should be GFCI. So should anything in bathroom or near kitchen sink - perhaps your wife would let you run an extension cord? Then you are very well protected.
I made myself a cord with GFCI receptacle. I had an old cord with a bad end, just nailed an electrical box to a plank installed the GFC! and wired the old cord to it.

Meantime can you insert a photo of the motor? Is it two speeds or three?

Jim, I see you have used a GE washer motor as well. Do you have a diagram of that? I have a 7 wires GE motor and can't figure out the wiring based on the schematic that came inside the washer.
Mine is a 1/2 HP model# 5KCP160FFA001AS.
Any help would be appreciated!

 

[jim hardy]

I have a 7 wires GE motor and can't figure out the wiring based on the schematic that came inside the washer.
Mine is a 1/2 HP model# 5KCP160FFA001AS.

could you scan and post that diagram?
Does your motor have a centrifugal start-run switch , something like in the picture in post 7 ?
Take a picture with your cellphone, load it into paint and size to fit the PF page(about 800 pixes wide), save and use upload button..

I'll look in my motor pile.
I know i have at least one non-Whirlpool that I've figured out.
Aha - i see i did mention a GE motor in post 9, probably the one i figured out. Can't quite remember right now what i did with it... if it's like yours i just have to find where i put the sketch.The search will have to wait for daylight.

Study post 7. It is long, but
it goes step by step how to figure out .which winding goes to what wire.
These multispeed washing machine motors washers all have a start winding and one run winding for each speed.
All of them I've seen start on fast speed.
That's because start and run windings must have same number of poles.
So after it's up to maybe 2/3 speed the start-run switch cuts off power to the start winding and switches power to the proper run winding for desired speed.

Armed with that understanding

and the steps from post 7

Pardon my crude schematic
get yourself a pencil and paper and draw one for your motor, arranged to suit your likes.

i'm sure we can work through your motor.
If it has no start-run switch they had to start it by another means.
Get any relays, and the start capacitor, out of the washer before the trash truck hauls it away.

Where are you located ? My metal recycle yard had a half dozen washing machines tin his "crush me" pile Wednesday, i might be able to snag you a relay or a motor with start switch next week.

old jim

 

[BLANKAJ]

could you scan and post that diagram?
Does your motor have a centrifugal start-run switch , something like in the picture in post 7 ?
Take a picture with your cellphone, load it into paint and size to fit the PF page(about 800 pixes wide), save and use upload button..

I'll look in my motor pile.
I know i have at least one non-Whirlpool that I've figured out.
Aha - i see i did mention a GE motor in post 9, probably the one i figured out. Can't quite remember right now what i did with it... if it's like yours i just have to find where i put the sketch.The search will have to wait for daylight.

Study post 7. It is long, but
it goes step by step how to figure out .which winding goes to what wire.
These multispeed washing machine motors washers all have a start winding and one run winding for each speed.
All of them I've seen start on fast speed.
That's because start and run windings must have same number of poles.
So after it's up to maybe 2/3 speed the start-run switch cuts off power to the start winding and switches power to the proper run winding for desired speed.

Armed with that understanding

and the steps from post 7

i'm sure we can work through your motor.
If it has no start-run switch they had to start it by another means.
Get any relays, and the start capacitor, out of the washer before the trash truck hauls it away.

Where are you located ? My metal recycle yard had a half dozen washing machines tin his "crush me" pile Wednesday, i might be able to snag you a relay or a motor with start switch next week.

old jim

Thank you for the fast reply! I truly appreciate it.
It does not appear to have a start run switch. But these are the parts I have here with me. I will look in my garage to see if I have any of the relays. I tried to gut as much as I could in the short time I had.
I hope these pictures show up. Otherwise I will try again when I get back to my computer.

 

[BLANKAJ]

I am located in Montana... so probably nowhere near you.

 

[BLANKAJ]

Also, here are the wires at the harness if it helps.

 

[jim hardy]

Wow two start windings - never saw that before ! Not like mine.

You'll need a start-run relay.
Which speed do you want to use?
What are you making with it?

 

[BLANKAJ]

Wow two start windings - never saw that before ! Not like mine.

You'll need a start-run relay.
Which speed do you want to use?
What are you making with it?

I am also making a motorized grain mill. I only need the low speed. I am hoping I have the start run relay at home in the pile of wires I pulled. I am currently at "work" but I do remember some unknown to me component taped up in the bundle. I will check that out as soon as I get home. Hopefully its the part I need!

 

[jim hardy]

I can't quite see the numbers in your picture of blue plug & wires, maybe you could annotate it in Paint...

Assuming they're as shown on diagram below

1. With your ohm-meter make sure NONE of the wires reads continuity to motor frame.
2. With your ohm-meter verify a few ohms, probably two or so, thru hi drive winding 6 to 2. Write down your reading.
3. With your ohm-meter verify a few ohms, probably two or so, thru lodrive winding 5 to 2. Write down your reading.
4 With your ohm-meter verify a few ohms, probably four or so, thru both windings 6 to 5. Write down your reading. Steps 1 and 2 should add to same result.
5. With your ohm-meter verify almost zero ohms, probably less than 1, thru thermal overload 2 to 1.
Now we're pretty sure we understand how motor is wired.

6. Make yourself a switched outlet and cord so you can control motor . I like one of these in a plastic box.

Cut the square female end off an old three prong computer monitor or similar cord so you can connect to motor wires. Put a lug on the green wire for safety earthing ground. That ALWAYS goes under a screw on motor's metal frame for safety. You knew that.but who else might read this ??Now you're ready to test run your motor.
7. Turn off switch.
8. Connect power cord to hi speed winding, 6 to 1, using insulated wire nuts, THEN plug it in.

9. Stand clear of motor, briefly turn switch on then back off. Motor should hum and vibrate real loud - it's drawing locked rotor current - but should not rotate. Don't leave it on more than a couple seconds, that high current heats the windings quickly.

.10. Spin the shaft by hand, flip the switch on while it's still turning. Motor should accelerate and run smooth&quiet. You may have to help it get started. Listen and feel for rough bearings.. Let it run a few minutes. Sniff for that "burning varnish" smell.
11. Turn off, let it coast to a stop. Feel for hot spots.
12. Repeat 10 but spin it the other way. It should run that way too.
13. Repeat 11..
14. Move one power wire from hi speed winding to low, ie from 6 to 5.
15. Repeat 9 thru 13. It should run smooth but slower, both directions.

That should be enough to keep you busy for a couple hours !
Success this far means you have a motor with both run windings good

For our next act we'll figure out how to make it start.
I've seen PTC thermistors on fridge motor start windings. Got a dead color TV around? They have one in the degaussing coil around CRT.

Good luck with the relay..

Grain mill... Be sure to mount motor so you can feel it to check for running too hot, or install an AC ammeter.. By the time you smell it the damage is done.
old jim

 

[jim hardy]

Hmmm do i see "vertical shaft down only" on nameplate ? I'd guess shaft horizontal is okay.

 

[BLANKAJ]

I think this was the missing start run relay.
I will go through the steps you layed out and see how it goes.
Thank you again for all your help.
I will update once I get some results.

 

[BLANKAJ]

I also noticed the shaft down note, I hope that was more of an installation note for the washer, and not that the motor requires some special mounting.

 

[BLANKAJ]

I can't quite see the numbers in your picture of blue plug & wires, maybe you could annotate it in Paint...

Assuming they're as shown on diagram below

1. With your ohm-meter make sure NONE of the wires reads continuity to motor frame.
2. With your ohm-meter verify a few ohms, probably two or so, thru hi drive winding 6 to 2. Write down your reading.
3. With your ohm-meter verify a few ohms, probably two or so, thru lodrive winding 5 to 2. Write down your reading.
4 With your ohm-meter verify a few ohms, probably four or so, thru both windings 6 to 5. Write down your reading. Steps 1 and 2 should add to same result.
5. With your ohm-meter verify almost zero ohms, probably less than 1, thru thermal overload 2 to 1.
Now we're pretty sure we understand how motor is wired.
View attachment 97976
6. Make yourself a switched outlet and cord so you can control motor . I like one of these in a plastic box.
View attachment 97977
Cut the square female end off an old three prong computer monitor or similar cord so you can connect to motor wires. Put a lug on the green wire for safety earthing ground. That ALWAYS goes under a screw on motor's metal frame for safety. You knew that.but who else might read this ??Now you're ready to test run your motor.
7. Turn off switch.
8. Connect power cord to hi speed winding, 6 to 1, using insulated wire nuts, THEN plug it in.

9. Stand clear of motor, briefly turn switch on then back off. Motor should hum and vibrate real loud - it's drawing locked rotor current - but should not rotate. Don't leave it on more than a couple seconds, that high current heats the windings quickly.

.10. Spin the shaft by hand, flip the switch on while it's still turning. Motor should accelerate and run smooth&quiet. You may have to help it get started. Listen and feel for rough bearings.. Let it run a few minutes. Sniff for that "burning varnish" smell.
11. Turn off, let it coast to a stop. Feel for hot spots.
12. Repeat 10 but spin it the other way. It should run that way too.
13. Repeat 11..
14. Move one power wire from hi speed winding to low, ie from 6 to 5.
15. Repeat 9 thru 13. It should run smooth but slower, both directions.

That should be enough to keep you busy for a couple hours !
Success this far means you have a motor with both run windings good

For our next act we'll figure out how to make it start.
I've seen PTC thermistors on fridge motor start windings. Got a dead color TV around? They have one in the degaussing coil around CRT.

Good luck with the relay..

Grain mill... Be sure to mount motor so you can feel it to check for running too hot, or install an AC ammeter.. By the time you smell it the damage is done.
old jim

OK, I ran through these steps and got the results you said I would! I'm feeling pretty good now.
thru high drive winding (6 to 2) I got 3.0 Ohms
thru low drive winding (5 to 2) I got 6.3 Ohms
thru both windings (6 to 5) I got 9.1 Ohms (doesn't add up exactly, but close. I assume that's ok.)
thru thermal overload (2 to 1) I got 0.1 Ohms
I connected 6-1 and turned the switch, got the hum, turned it off. Then spun it and turned it on once in each direction. ran both ways at high speed. Then did it again at low speed, complete success!
Now to figure out how to start it. I will attach the diagram of the relay, and the actual connections on it from my phone in a few. It is late, but I hope you will have time tomorrow to review this.
Thank you so much!

 

[BLANKAJ]

And here is the relay diagram.

 

[BLANKAJ]

Here is the wire harness numbered as best as I could

 

[jim hardy]

Wow i learn something with every project.

I think you lucked out with your motor. I know I'm happy for the lesson...

Every one of these i ever played with until today had a centrifugal switch to cut out the start winding.
That let's them use a cheap capacitor that's not long lived.

So, i was confused by the schematic - there's no switch to cut out the start winding !
Hmmm i guess the 'psc' by motor means "permanent split capacitor", which a type of split-phase motor where you don't switch out the "start" winding.

That's why they use a 60,000 hour rated capacitor, that's good for around five years continuous use which is not bad for a home appliance.

http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/1658206.pdf

So your task just got a lot easier.
All you have to do is wire the capacitor , which is a RUN capacitor not just a start capacitor, in series with the proper start winding..
Back to your schematic. Took me all day to figure this out...
They use the speed relay to select both the desired run winding and the accompanying start winding.

The schematic shows high speed , agitate
Trace start winding current, orange

It goes like a corkscrew - orange line
down and right through agitate relay then way up then way right then down through another agitate contact
then through speed relay bypassing "lo start" half of start winding
then down into "hi start" half of start winding
then out and up through a third agitate switch ( they used two agitate switch contacts for start winding so they can reverse motor)
then up, way way right and down then left to start(oops - make that RUN) capacitor
then on around through thermal overload and out of washer ( provided lid is closed- see lid switch interlock?)
Whew !
Red run current is a lot easier to trace.

That's high speed.
You want low speed.

So here's all you have to do to your motor.
Get power to low drive winding, and to "lo start" winding through run cap.
EDITED to correct two pin numbers-jh
1. Verify with your ohm meter there's a few ohms between 4 and 3,
a few also between 4 and 7,
and about their sum between 7 and 3.
2. Verify there's no connection between start and either of the run windings.
That tells us we've found start winding where we expected it by schematic.

Yellow wiring i think you can do with just those wires from your plug
twist 7&4 together to replace contact of relay we didnt use - though i think it'd work without doing that (i hope you try and let us know)
one side of capacitor to 2, other side to 3
5 7 and 4 to one side of power cord (i'd put black hot wire there)
1 to other side (white) of power cord
green Earth wire to motor frame

try it out. Don't ignore earthing green wire , safety first.

To make it run backwards , reverse current through start by swapping 3 and 4.

That looks good to me.

If it won't start, put your meter on highest ohms and hook across cap. It should start at zero and raise slowly. It it reads high immediately it's lost its capacitance. Try it both ways.
A new run cap won't be expensive. Good electrical supply house will have an assortment of them. Metal can style is okay, just be sure it's a MOTOR RUN not a START cap. I estimate fifteen bucks or less. My last one was seven.

Let us know
and thanks for the lesson, i'll no longer shun those type motors at the junkyard.

old jim

 

[BLANKAJ]

Jim, your instructions worked perfectly! Thank you so much.
I did forget to try not hooking it up between hi/lo start before I crimped the connections. I must have gotten too excited it worked that it slipped my mind.
In case anyone else has this same motor and is following your diagram connection "8" is actually a B (black) so the pin number should be 4. And power in "9" was an O or pin connection 1.
The diagram is super small font, then the fact it's a picture of it makes it even harder to read.
But like I said before, Jim, I can't thank you enough. If you are ever in Great Falls Montana I will gladly buy, or make you a beer (unlimited beers actually)!

 

[jim hardy]

Congratulations to you for rescuing a pretty doggone nice piece of machinery.! You've doubtless priced new half horse motors...

Glad it worked. That looks like a really good one, there's plenty of iron in it.

Feel of the windings after maybe ten minutes of grinding. If they're super hot consider a smaller pulley and the higher speed windings. Most of these motors have a slightly lower power rating at low speed.

Really i think you'll be okay.

Have fun and i hope you can help your friends with their motors.

Great Falls... I've been to Missoula...

old jim

 

[BLANKAJ]

Congratulations to you for rescuing a pretty doggone nice piece of machinery.! You've doubtless priced new half horse motors...

Glad it worked. That looks like a really good one, there's plenty of iron in it.

Feel of the windings after maybe ten minutes of grinding. If they're super hot consider a smaller pulley and the higher speed windings. Most of these motors have a slightly lower power rating at low speed.

Really i think you'll be okay.

Have fun and i hope you can help your friends.

Great Falls... I've been to Missoula...

old jim

I am so glad I found this motor, followed by this forum! The motor was in a washing machine we had here at work that started leaking less than a year after getting it. Instead of fixing it they just bought another and left this one collecting dust. When I asked what we should do with it I was told to toss it, so I stripped it for parts! I gathered wires, mounts, and even used the washers lid as my internal panel for my electric brewing control box!
I will keep an eye on the windings to make sure its not getting too hot. I'm hoping to get this all up and running in the upcoming week! I'll post a finished picture once it is complete.

 

[jim hardy]

In case anyone else has this same motor and is following your diagram connection "8" is actually a B (black) so the pin number should be 4. And power in "9" was an O or pin connection 1.

is this right now ? ( for the next guy...)

duh, i didnt check against your most excellent photo
there is no 8 or 9 !
and i had it right on page 2 ! Dang my clumsiness !...

i went back up and fixed the numbers in the instructions post too.

old jim

 

[BLANKAJ]

That is exactly how I have it wired, and it works perfectly (at low speed, I didn't wire it for hi speed). I might decide to set it up for both directions, I'm still undecided if it will be beneficial.
You sir are incredibly helpful and kind.

 

[hawaiibrewer]

I've been using my grain mill now for a few months...probably ground 100 lbs thru it so far with no problems or over heating. I do find it better to start the mill before I load too much in the hopper. Once it's running, I can fill the hopper full. The pulleys I used do a good job of reducing the speed. Here's a link for the grinding.

 

[jim hardy]

Glad to hear it's working. And i like your workmanship !

I do find it better to start the mill before I load too much in the hopper. Once it's running, I can fill the hopper full.

A bigger start capacitor might help with that.
My fault - you could go to 100uf maybe even 200..
Looks like you have it securely held down. The bigger cap will make starting more , well let's say "assertive" .

Thanks for the video - everybody likes a success story !

Cheers,
old jim