What force is preventing car wheel bolts from being removed?

AI Thread Summary
The discussion centers on the forces preventing the removal of car wheel bolts, highlighting the role of static friction at the threads and the normal force exerted by the bolt. Participants clarify that friction creates a torque that resists the applied force when attempting to loosen the bolt. The conversation emphasizes the importance of understanding the relationship between forces and torques, particularly in the context of a free body diagram. It is noted that the frictional forces at the nut and bolt interface contribute significantly to the difficulty of removing the bolts. Overall, the complexities of torque, friction, and force interactions are critical in understanding why wheel bolts can be challenging to remove.
ChessEnthusiast
Messages
115
Reaction score
3
Let's say we want to change a wheel in a car. We want to remove bolts fastening the wheel using this tool:
F62WLEBIDIN7K8O.LARGE.jpg

I have also drawn a diagram of the forces in operation:
diagram.PNG


Now, from experience I can say that the point of rotation of the wrench will be the blue point. Now, trying to determine the torque relative to that point leaves us with a net torque anticlockwise (friction gets canceled out).

Yet, we know that removing these bolts requires some effort. Therefore, there either are more forces in action or the axis of rotation I chose is incorrect (or both)

What am I missing?
 

Attachments

  • F62WLEBIDIN7K8O.LARGE.jpg
    F62WLEBIDIN7K8O.LARGE.jpg
    44.2 KB · Views: 1,897
  • diagram.PNG
    diagram.PNG
    3.6 KB · Views: 2,179
  • Like
Likes Merlin3189
Physics news on Phys.org
ChessEnthusiast said:
diagram-png.png
Why is friction acting at the center of the bolt?
 

Attachments

  • diagram-png.png
    diagram-png.png
    3.6 KB · Views: 1,451
ChessEnthusiast said:
What am I missing?
There is a frictional torque as well as a frictional force.
 
  • Like
Likes russ_watters and CWatters
No, there's no frictional force; friction applies the torque. The linear force shown on the diagram is applied by the bolt.
 
  • Like
Likes Dale
russ_watters said:
No, there's no frictional force
What do you mean?
 
I see. So, to recap:
There are three forces acting on the wrench:
  • gravity
  • the force we apply
  • the force the bolt applies
The last force does not contribute to the net torque. There are three factors contributing to it:
  • gravity
  • the force we apply
  • the friction torque
Is it correct so far?
 
1. Friction occurs at the threads of the nut/bolt, and on the mating face of the lug nut (not at the center of the bolt)
2. There is a 'normal' force perpendicular to the plane in your picture - it is the result of 'stretching' the stud and deforming the wheel/hub.
 
  • Like
Likes russ_watters and Delta2
A.T. said:
What do you mean?
Linear force. On a free body diagram you draw "forces" and "torques" (moments).
 
russ_watters said:
No, there's no frictional force; friction applies the torque. The linear force shown on the diagram is applied by the bolt.
Good catch! Yes, you are right. That is a normal force from the bolt, not a frictional force from the nut.
 
  • Like
Likes russ_watters
  • #10
russ_watters said:
Linear force. On a free body diagram you draw "forces" and "torques" (moments).
But there also are frictional forces at the thread of the bolt.
 
  • #11
A.T. said:
But there also are frictional forces at the thread of the bolt.
What do you mean?
 
  • #12
russ_watters said:
What do you mean?

The question is "What force is preventing car wheel bolts from being removed?" I'm picturing a threaded bolt screwed into the wheel. To get it out you need to overcome the static friction of the thread.
 
  • #13
A.T. said:
The question is "What force is preventing car wheel bolts from being removed?" I'm picturing a threaded bolt screwed into the wheel. To get it out you need to overcome the static friction of the thread.
Yes... It isn't clear to me why you think that contradicts what I said.
 
  • #14
Dale said:
Good catch! Yes, you are right. That is a normal force from the bolt, not a frictional force from the nut.
The situation between the nut and bolt is statically indeterminate. There is no way to tell whether normal force or frictional force is responsible for the net vertical force of bolt on nut.
 
  • Like
Likes Dale and russ_watters
  • #15
jbriggs444 said:
The situation between the nut and bolt is statically indeterminate. There is no way to tell whether normal force or frictional force is responsible for the net vertical force of bolt on nut.
Good point. When tight, the friction between the face of the nut and wheel could be significant, if the nut is assumed to be flat...

...which they usually are not because you don't want friction supporting the wheel.
 
  • #16
jbriggs444 said:
The situation between the nut and bolt is statically indeterminate. There is no way to tell whether normal force or frictional force is responsible for the net vertical force of bolt on nut.
Wow, this thread is full of great follow ups!

We would need something like a FEM to get the details, but overall there is a net force and a net torque
 
  • Like
Likes jbriggs444
  • #17
russ_watters said:
Yes... It isn't clear to me why you think that contradicts what I said.
I was confused by your statement that "there's no frictional force". But we seem to agree that it's there now.
 
  • #18
russ_watters said:
Good point. When tight, the friction between the face of the nut and wheel could be significant, if the nut is assumed to be flat...

...which they usually are not because you don't want friction supporting the wheel.
I'm not sure where this thread is going. Is there something that's not as obvious as it seems to me? An additional tangential force on the nut could have been added to the original diagram and that would have 'explained' everything, I think.

Screws and many other fasteners that do not involve 'riveting' of some sort remain in place due to friction. Without friction they would unscrew themselves and shelves would fall down. The pitch of the wheel nut thread is shallow and contributes to prevent movement of the nut around the stud when torqued up. Also, there is friction between the nut and the seating. Torque applied to tighten the nut causes tension in the stud which, in turn, produces more friction between the threads and under the nut face. The torque specification is there to prevent over stretching the stud. In some applications, bolts have to be replaced, once removed because the application requires the two faces to be held together with great force. (Some cylinder heads on IC engines.) Corrosion will increase the friction force after time and it can be high enough for the stud to shear before it shifts. The 50 ft lb for your average wheel nut should not be exceeded, even if one is feeling particularly fit.

If there is any slop of the wheel hole around the stud, and if the nut has a flat face friction is important or the wheel could move laterally to the stud and groove the thread. Wheel nuts are usually tapered and fit into a tapered dip in the wheel, to avoid this happening. (Just reinforcing / clarifying the point, Russ). This technique doesn't seem to be used in other applications; perhaps it's for the benefit of the non-engineering types who need a sloppy fit so that they can actually put a replacement wheel in place.
 
  • Like
Likes Merlin3189
  • #19
sophiecentaur said:
I'm not sure where this thread is going. Is there something that's not as obvious as it seems to me? An additional tangential force on the nut could have been added to the original diagram and that would have 'explained' everything, I think.
Much of the discussion has gone beyond what is shown in the diagram. But no, I would not add a "tangential force" on the nut, I'd add a torque. It's not applied at a single point, so it can't be drawn as being applied at a single point.
 
  • Like
Likes sophiecentaur
  • #20
A.T. said:
The question is "What force is preventing car wheel bolts from being removed?" I'm picturing a threaded bolt screwed into the wheel. To get it out you need to overcome the static friction of the thread.
That force exists because the bolt is trying to rotate. It resists rotation so it's actually a torque.
 
  • #21
russ_watters said:
Much of the discussion has gone beyond what is shown in the diagram. But no, I would not add a "tangential force" on the nut, I'd add a torque. It's not applied at a single point, so it can't be drawn as being applied at a single point.
You are right, strictly, but the tangential force would be an 'equivalent' force and would avoid mixing forces and torques in what should be a simple argument.
 
  • #22
sophiecentaur said:
You are right, strictly, but the tangential force would be an 'equivalent' force and would avoid mixing forces and torques in what should be a simple argument.
Well, there's a couple of problems with that:
1. There's no distance specified, so we wouldn't know where to apply it.
2. It would need to be applied as two forces in opposite directions (a "couple") on opposite sides to avoid implying a new linear/normal force.

This is why I don't like calling or representing a torque as a "force", per my point to A.T.
 
  • Like
Likes sophiecentaur
  • #23
CWatters said:
That force exists because the bolt is trying to rotate. It resists rotation so it's actually a torque.
The frictional forces create a torque. But they are still forces.
 
  • #24
russ_watters said:
But no, I would not add a "tangential force" on the nut, I'd add a torque. It's not applied at a single point, so it can't be drawn as being applied at a single point.
That makes perfect practical sense for the FBD. But if a question is explicitly about forces, I would still point to the frictional forces.
 
  • #25
A.T. said:
That makes perfect practical sense for the FBD. But if a question is explicitly about forces, I would still point to the frictional forces.
Fair enough, but we're here to answer the OP, aren't we? The OP gave a FBD(!) and even used the correct labels and language to describe it(!). I see no good reason to muddy the water by not addressing the OP's question as it is and identifying the answer for what it is.

Uncertainty about the source of the second force aside, the OP:
-Correctly identified the forces and where they act.
-Left out the [reaction] torque.

Evidently, you were not aware that it is common language to separate "forces" and "torques" and you prefer to call the torque a "force". Please just accept that you learned something and move on.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Likes Merlin3189 and ChessEnthusiast
  • #26
Does anyone remember this recent thread? https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/answering-simple-questions.953955/
 
  • #27
Merlin3189 said:
Does anyone remember this recent thread? https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/answering-simple-questions.953955/
It's an active topic of discussion in the moderator's forum.
 
  • Like
Likes jack action
  • #28
Slightly off topic but, given commercial tyre fitters often use pneumatic nut / bolt drivers for speed, you may find that wrench illustrated cannot shift nuts / bolts roadside. I've had cause to literally jump up and down on the supplied tool, whack it with a convenient brick, even stamp it to break the initial 'stiction'. For safety, such must be done before jacking vehicle...

After that, I got a neat telescopic wrench, and deploying its additional foot beat using mine...

FWIW, although it is a minor contribution at 'domestic' torque levels, there will be some stretching of the bolt within its thread, friction on the slightly distorted thread walls augmenting the resistance to rotation of the head tightened against the wheel etc. Industrially, bolts and studs may be torqued, pre-loaded to remarkable levels. A real Engineer could tell it better...
 
  • Like
Likes russ_watters
  • #29
ChessEnthusiast said:
Now, from experience I can say that the point of rotation of the wrench will be the blue point. Now, trying to determine the torque relative to that point leaves us with a net torque anticlockwise (friction gets canceled out).

Yet, we know that removing these bolts requires some effort. Therefore, there either are more forces in action or the axis of rotation I chose is incorrect (or both)

What am I missing?
What you are missing is the concept of couple (which results in a torque). First, the force you call 'friction' is mislabeled. You should call it 'reaction force'. When you apply the force at the end of the lever (in addition to the force due gravity), you have a reaction force from the stud itself that is equal and opposite to the sum of those forces. You can see that by noticing that the tire will squeeze a little bit more because you are pushing down on it (If you were pulling the lever up, you might even lift up the wheel off the ground).

Because the forces are misaligned, they constitute a couple, which creates a torque (in this case, anticlockwise). You seem to think that because the forces are equal and opposite, they "absorb" each other and thus cannot contribute to the torque. That is not the case. In static (i.e. no motion), forces must be opposed by other forces and they all contribute to torque. If the sum of the torques they create is zero, then there is no resultant torque.

In the case you presented, you should add a clockwise torque on your diagram. This torque comes from the friction between the thread of the stud & nut and it will be equal and opposite to the torque created by the couples coming from the applied forces (your hand & part of the reaction force, and the force due to gravity & the rest of the reaction force).
 
  • #30
russ_watters said:
Much of the discussion has gone beyond what is shown in the diagram. But no, I would not add a "tangential force" on the nut, I'd add a torque. It's not applied at a single point, so it can't be drawn as being applied at a single point.
I can't disagree but the concept of Moments is introduced in Science Education well before Torque. If you take moments about the axis of the stud, you can ignore any force on that reference point. As a starter, I would say that the idea of an 'equivalent' tangential force would be more than acceptable when discussing the action of a wrench with students up to A Level. I think we tend to forget just how elementary, elementary means.
 
  • #31
Nik_2213 said:
commercial tyre fitters often use pneumatic nut / bolt drivers for speed,
They are required, in the UK, to use a calibrated torque wrench for the final tightening. I have seen this in practice for several years now (state of the roads is much worse these days). The instructions also forbid the use of grease on the mating faces.
 
  • Like
Likes Nik_2213
  • #32
sophiecentaur said:
I can't disagree but the concept of Moments is introduced in Science Education well before Torque.
Is it? I would think they would be taught on the same day. Is this before or after learning about "couples"? Anyway, even if that's true, this problem would be the perfect setting to introduce the concept of torque. And:
If you take moments about the axis of the stud, you can ignore any force on that reference point. As a starter, I would say that the idea of an 'equivalent' tangential force would be more than acceptable when discussing the action of a wrench with students up to A Level. I think we tend to forget just how elementary, elementary means.
What you're now suggesting is to teach an unnecessary and potentially harmful skill/concept - how to pull forces and levers out of thin air and apply them to a problem - in order to avoid teaching a necessary one. How is that not counterproductive?

...actually, double-checking the definitions, the difference between "torque" and "moment" is purely functional; torque is an in-motion moment, whereas moments can be static or in motion. So this objection about the order of teaching is moot.
 
Last edited:
  • #33
russ_watters said:
I would think they would be taught on the same day. Is this before or after learning about "couples"?
I think we are talking about different levels of teaching. The definition and the 'principle' of Moments comes long before Couples. You may be thinking in terms of your own education, as someone (a minority) who tended to find that most of early Physics made sense to you. Levers are much easier appreciated than gears by most students (adults too),
PS levers and seesaws, where the forces are all parallel are about as far as many people go. The "Perpendicular Distance" is a taxing idea, even for some A level students.
 
  • #34
sophiecentaur said:
I think we are talking about different levels of teaching. The definition and the 'principle' of Moments comes long before Couples.
That's a problem for your suggestion then, since your idea requires a couple.
 
  • #35
russ_watters said:
That's a problem for your suggestion then, since your idea requires a couple.
But not Explicitly. The word Couple is not actually necessary. It's actually quite a bit more sophisticated compared with introducing a Fulcrum and taking moments about it (with parallel forces mostly). People very often miss the requirement for the fulcrum to be fixed - or they just assume they can ignore it. Strangely, I was never asked the question "What about the force on the fulcrum?" That was one reason for my present opinion.
 
  • #36
In my personal experience, for what it can count, the concept of "moment of a force" was taught to us at school, the concept of "couple of forces" only at university. The concept of "torque" its'not much used in Italy.

--
lightarrow
 
  • Like
Likes sophiecentaur
  • #37
I started a response to the OP, but it went off in a math-linguistic direction while I was still drawing my diagrams of wheel bolts!

What bothered me about the original post, was the F arrow - not because I didn't think there should be a force there in that direction, nor because I thought there should be a torque or couple or moment. But friction always opposes movement between two objects in contact and I couldn't see any relative movement at that point.
I can see that the downward force on the wrench, applied to the bolt, is trying to move the bolt down. But I thought that force would be opposed, upto more than anything you are likely to apply, by the vertical reaction of the hub. Even if the hub did rotate, say because the wheel slipped, the bolt and its housing would move together. The force through the centre of the bolt perpendicular to the hub radius would still be reaction, not friction.

But, of course, it is friction that is stopping the bolt from turning in its housing. So we need to show where this friction occurs.
wheelnut3.png

Despite previous discussion I've shown friction as a number of distinct arrows. It should be understood that friction occurs over the whole of the mating surfaces, so we could have an infinite number of little arrows, all pointing perpendicular to the radius at their point of action. Their sense will, as always with friction, be opposite to the direction of movement, or attempted movement until friction is overcome.

When we have linear (attempted) movement between two surfaces, all the little arrows point in the same direction - again opposite to the (attempted) movement. So the sum of them all is a single large arrow in that direction.
When the (attempted) movement is rotation, every little arrow has an opposite arrow on the other side of the disc, so the sum of all the little arrows is zero! There is no net force in any direction.

But all these little forces DO cause a net torque, moment, couple, or whatever you want to call it, about the centre of rotation.
Each little force multiplied by its radius give a turning force in the same direction, so these sum to a non-zero total.

As the previous discussion has said, we can't represent this torque with a single force, but we can represent it with a pair of equal and opposite forces acting at equal and opposite distances from the centre of rotation, ie a couple. (As shown on the left part of the diagram.)

Calculating (the limiting value of) this frictional torque is not quite so easy. I'll leave that* to the excellent mathematicians who've been arguing above.
But we shouldn't need to calculate: If we "torque" it up to 120 Nm when we fit the bolts, presumably that's about the torque we should need to reverse the process.

Here I've shown only the friction between the bolt head and the wheel/hub, but there will also be frictional torque on the threads. Again, since friction is always reactive, this torque will always add to the total frictional torque.

*(Literally on the back of an envelope, I got it to be ##T = \frac {2} {3} \frac {(R^3 - R_0^3)} {(R^2 - R_0^2)} μ F_N##
where ##F_N## is the normal force between the mating surfaces - here the bolt head and the wheel/hub
##μ## the coefficient of friction between these surfaces
##R## is half the outside diameter of the bolt head and ##R_0## half the inside diameter of the bolt head
and T does not include friction elsewhere, such as between the bolt threads and the hub.. )

BTW
russ_watters said:
It's an active topic of discussion in the moderator's forum.
It was a bit rhetorical. I thought most of the participants would have read it. I intended to suggest that some should perhaps bear it in mind when thinking about their contributions here.
 

Attachments

  • wheelnut3.png
    wheelnut3.png
    16.3 KB · Views: 613
  • Like
Likes Dale, sophiecentaur, russ_watters and 1 other person
  • #38
Merlin3189 said:
When we have linear (attempted) movement between two surfaces, all the little arrows point in the same direction - again opposite to the (attempted) movement. So the sum of them all is a single large arrow in that direction.
If the arrows represent local friction forces, then they cannot point in the same direction, because friction is always parallel to the contact surface

Merlin3189 said:
When the (attempted) movement is rotation, every little arrow has an opposite arrow on the other side of the disc, so the sum of all the little arrows is zero! There is no net force in any direction.
Yes, but In the given case the friction on opposite sides don't have to be equal but opposite. They can produce a net torque and a net force.
 
  • #39
Disagree with first point - parallel vectors must point in the same direction, else they're not parallel.

Aggree with second point - I just tried to distinguish between the linear and rotational cases. Yes you could also have a mixture.
 
  • #40
Merlin3189 said:
Disagree with first point - parallel vectors must point in the same direction, else they're not parallel.
The point was that the friction forces are tangential to the curved contact surface, so they cannot all "point in the same direction".
 
  • #41
A.T. said:
The point was that the friction forces are tangential to the curved contact surface, so they cannot all "point in the same direction".
They don't have to be, and in this case they are not. @Merlin3189 correctly broke the problem apart into the linear force and the torque (a bunch of little tangential forces). Adding them together yields forces not tangential to the curves because the linear force is mostly not tangential. Or flipped over; the only places where the friction forces are tangential are along the horizontal line perpendicular to the vertical force...because that's the only place the vertical force is tangential to the curves.

Anyway, his explanation is why I'm opposed to showing the torque (moment) as anything but a torque. Showing it as a collection of linear forces adds assumptions and maybe even calculus for no reason...and opportunities for unnecessary confusion.
 
  • #42
russ_watters said:
the only places where the friction forces are tangential are along the horizontal line perpendicular to the vertical force
Friction forces are always tangential to the contact surface, per definition.
 
  • #43
A.T. said:
Friction forces are always tangential to the contact surface, per definition.
What definition? Are you using "tangential" in place of "parallel"? Please explain, because what you are saying does not make sense.
 
  • #44
russ_watters said:
What definition?
Friction is the component of the contact force that is tangential to the contact surface.
 
  • #45
A.T. said:
Friction is the component of the contact force that is tangential to the contact surface.
Again: are you sure you don't mean "parallel"? Surfaces are, by definition, flat, so they don't have tangents.

...and they also aren't "a component of the contact force"; they are perpendicular to the contact force.
 
  • #46
russ_watters said:
Again: are you sure you don't mean "parallel"? Surfaces are, by definition, flat, so they don't have tangents.

...and they also aren't "a component of the contact force"; they are perpendicular to the contact force.
The "contact force" can include normal components. The pressure of a book on a table or the tension of a drop of glue hanging from the ceiling.
 
  • #47
jbriggs444 said:
The "contact force" can include normal components. The pressure of a book on a table or the tension of a drop of glue hanging from the ceiling.
Ok, I was thinking from the usage that the "contact force" was only the normal component. And then friction is a separate parallel force. But if both are combined into a single resultant "contact force", ok...

...with that word usage issue aside, then...not sure where that leaves us. Still not sure about "parallel" vs "tangential"...
 
  • #48
russ_watters said:
Surfaces are, by definition, flat, so they don't have tangents.

First, surfaces don't have to be flat--what about the surface of a ball?

Second, flat surfaces do have tangents; they just happen to be parallel to the surface. So a simple solution to the conundrum you have set yourself here is to just interpret "tangential" to mean "parallel" for flat surfaces (which, as I understand it, is exactly what mathematicians in fact do).
 
  • #49
PeterDonis said:
First, surfaces don't have to be flat--what about the surface of a ball?

Second, flat surfaces do have tangents; they just happen to be parallel to the surface. So a simple solution to the conundrum you have set yourself here is to just interpret "tangential" to mean "parallel" for flat surfaces (which, as I understand it, is exactly what mathematicians in fact do).
Ok, so parallel = tangential in the case of a flat surface, which we have here.

So then a linear applied force is opposed by a linear friction force, parallel to the surface of the nut, right? And:
A.T. said:
If the arrows represent local friction forces, then they cannot point in the same direction, because friction is always parallel to the contact surface.
In the case of a linear force applied to the nut, the elements of friction force are parallel to each other and pointed in the opposite direction (same direction as each other). Right?
 
  • #50
russ_watters said:
a linear applied force is opposed by a linear friction force, parallel to the surface of the nut, right?

It's a little complicated because there is not a single flat "surface of the nut"; this case is not as simple as the case of, say, pushing a heavy block along a rough floor.

First, the force exerted by the wrench socket on the hex head of the nut that causes the nut to turn is not parallel to the side of the hex head that a given point on the wrench is in contact with. If it were, the side of the hex head would just slide along itself, not rotate. The force exerted by the wrench at a given point on the hex head is at an angle to that side of the hex head.

Second, the friction force that opposes the motion of the nut is not exerted along the hex head; it's exerted along the threads. The thread surface is a helix, not a flat plane. The force exerted by the wrench on the hex head has to be transmitted through the nut to get the nut as a whole to move; and the friction along the threads opposes that motion. At a given point on the threads, the motion of the nut and the friction force are both collinear (and in opposite directions, yes), but the line along which they act is not in the same plane as the plane of rotation of the hex head; it is tilted at an angle that depends on the thread pitch. This line is tangent to the surface of the thread at the chosen point, but since the thread is not a flat plane, the word "parallel" is not really appropriate in this case.
 
  • Like
Likes jbriggs444
Back
Top